Regarding Real Street on Sunday

[RSwannabe]

Please explain how a car with illegal weight can win a round and proceed to win the race.

After the completion of the race between Brian Meyer and Paul Wiley the tech department found unsecurred weight in Meyers car. I do believe all weight must be securred and if any weight is found unsecurred it is a disqualification for the illegal car. But not in this case, the driver of the car says I didn't know it was there and tech said we'll take your word for it and because if it was not there you would have still made weight we will let you still have the win.

This is still illegal and should have ended there.

If a team purchases an engine and it is over the cubic inch limit, the heads are ported and polished and decked below the ever coveted 58cc mark, and hang a supercharger with an improper pulley size on the engine but do not tell the driver all of these facts and tech finds out what happens when the driver says i didn't know it was like that. The driver is responsible for the car that he is fielding and takes responsibilty that it is within the rules.

Why does the under dog go into a race?
To hope for something to go his way.
The other car breaks, redlights, misses a gear, comes up light on the scales, something fails at tech.

Just something I was wondering and hope to hear from all of you .

[PulpDogsRacing]

Sometimes what will happen is that the unsecured weight is removed and you are weighed without it. If you don't make weight, then you are DQed. With that being said, sometimes, it does count for who you know and who you are. :D

[Mike Galimi]

From my understanding through several people who were involved in the weight issue, the unsecured ballast that others are referring to amounted to less than 1 pound of weight. It was equivelent to a wrench or tire pressure gauge that just about every racer keeps behind the front seat for last minute tire pressure checks in the staging lanes. It was not a significant amount of weight. Plus the racer was still 65 pounds over weight despite removing the less than one pound object.

Also as for the weight situation I was under the impression that after Bradenton the tech officials stated in other posts that when they found weight at the scales it was removed then the car was reweighed. If at that point the car was still at legal weight the driver was left with a warning for the next round. If the car was under weight than that run down the track did not count. I do not remember where it was posted on this board but I do recall one of the tech officials commenting on this procedere on this site. There were several situations in Bradenton that this procedere was used.

Note: I am not part of the NMRA tech staff and the comments above are in no way affliated with the NMRA organization. Any similar comments or announcements that are similar to the above comments are simply coincidental.

[Bob Cosby]

I have no stake in this issue. I do not know the specifics, nor do I want to. However, I can relate my personal experience concerning "illegal ballast".

At the NMRA Finals last year in Bowling Green, my car was disqualified for having 10 lbs of "unsecured ballast" after having "won" the second round of eliminations. I would likely have been disqualified if it had been 5 lbs. It was "unsecured" or "illegal" ballast - or whatever you wish to call it. I did ask if we could remove the ballast and re-weigh, but the tech inspector said no - I was done. He had no way of knowing if I would have been over or under without the extra weight - it was illegal and that was that. I accepted this and moved on. Thom and I even had a few laughs over it this past weekend. I have nobody to blame but myself - it was my responsibility.

Again, I know not the specifics of this situation. I do hope the NMRA is being consistant with their rules enforcement. Even the perception of favoritism is harmful, as perception is fact in the mind of the perceiver.

[Mike Galimi]

From my understanding this year the remove and reweigh technique has been their consistent policy. Last year I know it was different BUT from the first race this year that seems to be how they are handling the unsecured ballast issue. So Bob I guess their policy has changed but still consistent from race to race in 2003.

[Bob Cosby]

Howdy Mike. I think you might have just inadvertently put your finger on part of the potential problem. To wit...if you could point to a policy on this issue - be it in the rules or on this Forum in the form of a post/reply/whatever - I'd love to read it. Barring that, racers have nothing to fall back on except precedence.

[porkchop]

FFW has simular problems. Unsecured ballast is so dangerous. This weekend at Houston we had one racer with four (4) 20# dumb bells, in a suit case, loose in the car. Another had two (2) 50# sacks of sand. Luckly these were found during Qualifying. Our policy is to not re-weigh the cars. If it's during Qual., that run is DQ'd. If it's during Elims, it's over. On the other hand, what kind of "ballast" is under 1#? An all-beef meat patty weighs that much.

[Mike Galimi]

I did not see the ballast but I would imagine it was a chunk of lead from those string of lead squares. Damn it is hard to explain but I know if someone has worked with them before they know what I am talking about. They are like maybe a 2 inch by 2 inch square and there are several squares attached. I would think it was a left off piece of 2x2 square lying on the floor.

As for the person with that much unsecured ballast, what do people think when they do things? Makes you have to wonder that is for damn sure.

Mr. Cosby- I do not remember what post it was under and considering the amount of posts that get thrown up on here everyday I would say it would be quite difficult to find the one that addressed the ballast issue. Does anyone remember what anything about this topic?

[red 408]

i think pork chop brought up the most important point here that is being over looked. un secured ballast is a SAFETY issue. making weight should be secondary. anything not secured in a race car has potential to become a deadly projectile should the unfortunate occur, thus this rule to protect the driver. i don't believe the reweigh it with out the weight is the right method of dealing with this situation. for a change FFWend has the right idea.
Adam
NMRA
OC #10

[Mike Galimi]

Either way both organizations are checking AFTER a run so that means the pass has all ready taken place and the potential for danger on that run is over. Being it is after the fact can only prevent future problems.

As for the dq as a deterent- there are many people who will always look at safety standards as secondary regardless of a potential dq or whatever.

It amazes me that there are people out there who do not take safety seriously.

[porkchop]

One other thing that goes along with what red 408 said, we have found loose ballast on vehicles (like the pick-up truck) that are not classes with minimum weight restrictions. Sometimes the weight may be added to help traction (the case with the two 50# sand bags) or as a means of beating the 1/10th break-out cushion in Open Comp classes. We have started checking all of the cars now for loose ballast, even the cars not required to pass over the scales. I don't think that you can seperate the loose ballast issues any more than not having a roll bar at 11.99. Both are equal no-no's according to NHRA. We don't give any second chances for either of these two violations.

[Ed Curtis]

Originally posted by Mike Galimi
From my understanding through several people who were involved in the weight issue, the unsecured ballast that others are referring to amounted to less than 1 pound of weight. It was equivelent to a wrench or tire pressure gauge that just about every racer keeps behind the front seat for last minute tire pressure checks in the staging lanes.

I did not see the ballast but I would imagine it was a chunk of lead from those string of lead squares. Damn it is hard to explain but I know if someone has worked with them before they know what I am talking about. They are like maybe a 2 inch by 2 inch square and there are several squares attached. I would think it was a left off piece of 2x2 square lying on the floor.


Lead weight or tire pressure gauge? Those at the scale said LEAD....

I will tell you this Mike... Thom Bates told me my Moroso Tire Pressure Case with Gauge enclosed, was illegal loose ballast when I ran the Evil Twin and had to remove it or be DQ'd.

[Uncle Robin]

Ed

If I was Thom I would bust your chops in Tech also. Is that what your saying he did? Favorable treatment?

Hehehe

Robin

[kanepsycho]

It would take Uncle Robin to cheer up the place. I laugh with you!!! YOu are sudden impact!!

Hey Mr. Curtis when are you going to send your artwork and my camshafts' specs out here to the Mid Pacific. If you sent the artwork, people are real quiet here.

Rusted

[Thom Bates]

I will tell you this Mike... Thom Bates told me my Moroso Tire Pressure Case with Gauge enclosed, was illegal loose ballast when I ran the Evil Twin and had to remove it or be DQ'd.

Ed,

So what you are saying is that I warned you to take the weight out, but did not DQ your run right?

The same technique was used for Brian. The weight found was small, wieghed as Mike suggested, only a pound or so. The weight was not added to make weight...... the car was 65 lbs heavy. In fact, it was still 65 lbs heavy in the following rounds. It's my opinion that he had no idea it was there. He was strongly warned that there would be no second chances.

I hope this will lay this subject to rest.

Thom

[Ed Curtis]

Originally posted by Thom Bates
Ed,

So what you are saying is that I warned you to take the weight out, but did not DQ your run right?

Yes, that's EXACTLY what I am saying. However, Bob Cosby and Jason Hoots were not given that opportunity. All I am bringing up is the "equal" distribution of warnings vs DQ'ing.

The same technique was used for Brian. The weight found was small, wieghed as Mike suggested, only a pound or so.

Can you verify the item. The racers at the scale (and Mike afterwards) said there were two 3" by 3" squares of lead under the carpet. No way they add up to one pound.

The weight was not added to make weight...... the car was 65 lbs heavy. In fact, it was still 65 lbs heavy in the following rounds. It's my opinion that he had no idea it was there. He was strongly warned that there would be no second chances.

Being consistantly 65 pounds over tells nothing. Ballast can be added or subtracted in the pits.

I hope this will lay this subject to rest.

Thom

Thom,

Is the issue safety related or strictly making minimum weight?

If was making weight, why were Bob and Jason tossed?

If it's safety, why were racers allowed to continue?

Can you now state for the record, that the "loose ballast issue" is not a safety concern and only a minimum weight concern? That it will be handled with a warning on the first violation and then followed by DQ?

Also, is this the rule for 2003 or from this point on?

Thanks for the help!

BTW... I did love Brian kicking the old man's butt... :D

(That's as politically correct for a Robin ass-whipping as I can get... :D )

Ed

[Thom Bates]

Ed,

It seems funny you have taken a personal interest in this matter, when you yourself do not race, but I'll humor you none the less. :D

There is no "guideline" as to at what point loose items are considered loose ballast...... is a quarter on the floor justification enough to qd a racer? How about a sparkplug socket and ratchet? How about that tire pressure gauge you refer to? The NHRA rulebook says that anything used for the purpose of adding to the total weight of a vehicle is to be permanently affixed. It also states that discovery of any loose ballast will result in disqualification from the race….. not just that run, mind you.

So at this point, the tech dept has to make discretionary calls in situations like this. Was the weight found “used to add weight” to the vehicle? Hardly,….Brian’s car was 65lbs over minimum all weekend. In Brian's case, along with a few others with small tools and such, the actual size and weight at hand was not a concern because it was so small. It was not weight added to the vehicle to "make weight" as in a barbell weight, a large chunk of metal, a bag of lead shot, or some of the other crazy-scary things we have found. In fact, I do not believe he knew it was there. The weight would not have affected his weigh-in weight, therefore he was given his warning and allowed to proceed to the next round.

The tech dept has been accused by some as being insensitive and not providing good customer service to the racers. Now we are being scrutinized for being too lenient. Last year, as with this year, we started out being more lenient (using discretion) at the beginning of the year on loose ballast situations allowing the competitor to reweigh with the weight removed, and eventually worked to a point where the run did get dq’d immediately when the ballast is found.

As a side note….. it’s usually very obvious whether weight was added to “make weight” or not. This was not the case here like it has certainly been the case in other situations.

Thom

[Bob Cosby]

Hmmm....as stated above, I'll be the first one to take responsibility for my "illegal ballast", and I have no issues with being tossed (other than wishing I hadn't of been stupid enough to put 10 lbs under the seat).

There are a couple of points that should not have any relevance here, IMHO.

It matters not if a car is 1 lb over or 100 lbs over. If illegal ballast is found, it is illegal. It is not more illegal if the car is 1lb over weight or less illegal if it is 100 lbs over weight.

Thom....when I went over the scales at BG last year with my "illegal ballast", how overweight was I? I'm sure you can look it up in the logs, but did you know when you came down to my car? Did it matter? Would I have still been kicked regardless of what my weight was when I crossed the scale? I think I would have (and rightfully so).

There certainly is a common-sense distinction between things like a wrench or air pressure guage and other things like 10 lb barbels (yup, I was busted with that), or lead, or some other material.

I would also like to state that racers, as a group, can get pretty creative in how they add weight. Keeping that common sense thing in mind, just because something looks like an "oops I forgot to take that out" item, or looks otherwise harmless, to assume so might not be the most wise thing to do. My 150 lb spare tire from a couple of years ago comes to mind.

Personally (ie..IMHO), I believe that in this particular situation, a "warning" was likely the right thing to do. However, when you kick others out for the same technical violation without a warning, you inevitably set yourself up for just this sort of issue, and should expect it.

I'm done. See ya'll in PA. Won't be any illegal ballast to be found in the Coupe - though Thom is welcome to peak under the rear carpet if he wants too. :)

BTW, I'd much prefer to whine about having to pay an extra $20 to get teched Friday afternoon - shall I start a new post on this issue? :D

[Uncle Robin]

Originally posted by Bob Cosby

Personally (ie..IMHO), I believe that in this particular situation, a "warning" was likely the right thing to do. However, when you kick others out for the same technical violation without a warning, you inevitably set yourself up for just this sort of issue, and should expect it.



As we know (or should know) Organzations such as the NMRA or FFW evolve. Each take into consideration the complaints and concerns from previous years.
It's not an exact science.
My biggest fear is that the organzations will be forced to to become "nit picky" about every detail of the rules.

I think that the word "discretion" is key here.

There isn't a car out there that some sort of violation could not be found.

Bob I agree with you, that a warning to Brian, and the three other racers that have been warned this year was appropriate.

Yeah for a 2 day event that we had to pay $20.00 to park on friday was an opportunity for NHRA to squeeze the little guy a little more. I did not want to make any passes but it was $20.00 anyway.

Robin

[kanepsycho]

Uncle Robin Lawrence for President and Bob Cosby for Vice President!!!!

Is Ed Curtis and Bob Cosby related by bloodlines somehow?????
Need side by side pictures of the two.

[Bob Cosby]

"Discretion" is indeed the operative word. However, "discrection" must be used with wisdom in order to avoid the kind of contraversy that evolves from this situation. Again, only the perception of favoritism is all that is needed to sour the bushel.

We certainly hoped that the perceived favoritism is just that - only perception.

[Thom Bates]

Bob,

You hit the nail on the head......discretion and perceived favortism. With the people that we have torn down over the past few years, and the names of the people that we have dq'd (Robin being the first to come to mind.... sorry Robin) for infractions... I'd like to think that the racers have confidence in our ability to make proper decisions, and that we do not have favortism when making these calls.

I (we) try to be as fair to the racers as possible... I think most of the racers I talk to at the track know and believe this. There are others that will never believe, and will always try to start controversy (sp?). I try my best to explain every time I have to (do my job) do a teardown, give a warning, or dq a racer for whatever reason it is.

Thank you for your constructive comments! See you soon. BTW, it was nice seeing again at Columbus.

Thom