blowers

[1bad357]

:confused: why can you run an F1r and an X or J trim in extreme street but in DR you can only run a YS against an F1r, what makes the YS so competitive for a F1r in DR but in extreme street they know it takes an X or at least a J trim?????

[Spence]

/me shrugs

an often asked but never heard question.

[Ricky@Vortech]

That's an excellent question!!!
-R

[JHenke]

Let us know when you get a GOOD answer.

[MichaelFreedman]

Ill one up you on that one....

Why can't you run an F2 in Xtreme St, when they can run a
J-trim or X-Trim?

Michael Freedman

[Ricky@Vortech]

Look at the mfr's advertised flow numbers on the units....
According to ATI that F1-R unit should be the perfect answer to our X-trim (actually even better right?). Unless for some strange reason it doesn't do what they say it does?????
-R

[MichaelFreedman]

In my opinion, the street blower (F1R) shouldn't be compaired against the race blower (X-Trim). The X-Trim has been in the 7s.
Ofcourse, that's the same argument in RS. A Race blower (NOVI)
against a street blower (P1SC).


Lets compare the two blowers in size

Vortech(X-Trim) Procharger (F1R) Procharger (F2R)

Inlet 5" 4" 4.5"
Outlet 3.5" 3" 3.5"
Housing 12.563" 9.75" 10.5"


Why penalize Procharger for making a better blower? We should
just institute a size limitation on power adders. That sounds
fair to me. Then let the blower companies prove what they are
made of. Hell, look at the F2 specs, it moves 2700cfm as compaired to the Z-Trims 2000cfm (Vortechs top blower). In my opinion, the rules shouldn't be made to make an inferior product able to compete. It should set dimensions and let the blower companies compete to be the best.

Oh yeah... Don't they just have a size limitation on turbos? I believe 76mm opening on the turbo. Maybe we could make the
rules so that the maximum size inlet on a supercharger is 5" to
accomodate the Vortech. Can you say D3R? :)

Michael Freedman

[No_Name_Bandit]

I didn't Know that Paxton built specific blowers for Real Street. Show me what considers that a "race blower". Plus isn't it going up against the P1sc2?

[Ricky@Vortech]

What makes a street blower Mike? What makes a race blower? Just curious so I can try to figure out some of these things you are saying....

The X-trim is no less streetable than would be an F1-R and besides that the only thing that matters is performance capability of the unit itself. The numbers generated by ATI for that F1-R blower show that it is a bigger MORE powerful unit than the X-trim PERIOD. That is of course assuming that ATI's numbers are accurate.....

And for you to call the NOVI 2000 a race unit while still trying convince people that the F1-R is any less of race unit is a joke dude. That same N2K that the Real Streeters are running is the exact same blower that can be bought off of the shelf from any Paxton outlet that goes into every street Paxton N2K system.


You want to know what makes a street unit to me? 50 state smog legality!!! None of the ATI F-series units carry that!. The Vortech A,S,S/C,R,T and YS trim and Paxton Novi 1000/2000 have that covered. Now who has the street blowers?

[No_Name_Bandit]

Deja-vu (did I spell that right?) Seems like there was a similar topic before the atco race in regards to a so called "stick blower"
Just out of curiousity is the f1 a street blower, is that still available? Fyi...the so called "real street race blower" is the exact same kit that I have on my daily drive mustang. Car passes smog, has all the smog equipment intact and does carry have 50 state legal e.o. number. This is the exact same kit that you can purchase from paxton right now!!!

[Ed Curtis]

Now about those nitrous cars....

:D :D :D ...Bwaaaahaaaahaaaahaaaaa... :D :D :D

"Jus' stirrin' the pot for Scott boyz"

[No_Name_Bandit]

Hey Tech Nazi I have a question, is real street aloud to run a sperate cell for the nitrous system???

[MichaelFreedman]

Let's take these one at a time :

************************************************** **
What makes a street blower Mike? What makes a race blower? Just curious so I can try to figure out some of these things you are saying....
************************************************** **

Well, what Im trying to say is that arbitrarily picking the blower that may or may not make as much power as another one is ludicrous. There needs to be some physical dimensions listed and the companies would then follow. This is the only thing that makes the turbo issue work. Trying to pick a turbo from each manufacturer that makes within 1% of the horsepower of another is rediculous especially since V and P have the same
product as 5 years ago. Expecting the other company to stagnate
is crazy. Specify the dimensions, and let the companies battle for supremecy.


************************************************** **
The X-trim is no less streetable than would be an F1-R and besides that the only thing that matters is performance capability of the unit itself. The numbers generated by ATI for that F1-R blower show that it is a bigger MORE powerful unit than the X-trim PERIOD. That is of course assuming that ATI's numbers are accurate.....
************************************************** **

Well, in actuality, I believe that the X-Trim is not rated correctly on
your website. Im not sure if that is so you can use it to compete
against the smaller blowers but I can pretty much guarantee that
it takes more than 1700cfm to make the power needed to both
turn the blower and push a car into the 7 second zone at 3000lbs.
ATI's numbers are accurate... maybe you should take a peek at
Vortechs.


************************************************** **
And for you to call the NOVI 2000 a race unit while still trying convince people that the F1-R is any less of race unit is a joke dude. That same N2K that the Real Streeters are running is the exact same blower that can be bought off of the shelf from any Paxton outlet that goes into every street Paxton N2K system.
************************************************** **

In my opinion, the Novi 2000 is compareable in performance to the
F1R. It has been proven in Renegade. What I was getting at is
the FACT that it is way bigger in power potential than the P1SC-2.
As for the N2K being the same system that goes into every street
N2K system, Ill still put my offer on the table. Ill put up a Novi that
I have and a ton of dough. I would bet the numbers that are
being put up by some of the Novi racers couldn't be backed up
with it. I haven't seen but a handful of hand finished extrude
honed Novis out there. The fact is that not all Novi's are the
same. One the other hand, if the F1R is compareable to the Novi
in performance, why don't you guys suggest to NMRA that they
let the F1R in as a Real Street blower.


************************************************** **
You want to know what makes a street unit to me? 50 state smog legality!!! None of the ATI F-series units carry that!. The Vortech A,S,S/C,R,T and YS trim and Paxton Novi 1000/2000 have that covered. Now who has the street blowers?
************************************************** **

Ok... That works for me. Being that the F1, F1R and F2 are all
emissions legal, does that mean that I can run it in the DR class?
Xtreme St? Renegade maybe? Smog legality is a crock. We are
talking about parity in the rules. The fact of the matter is that the
two companies that you represent haven't made any advances
in a long time. In the Novi's case, trying to cram that into every
class because it is the only blower made is crazy. I would imagine
that if they did make the rules FAIR and specify a size restriction,
(as they do with turbos), Vortech and Paxton would be in
real trouble.

We can play the symantics game and pick apart each word posted
and we will get no where. What I am trying to point out is that
the best way to make rules is to do it based on size. If Vortech
comes out of the woodwork with a blower that fits the rules and
is better than the others.. hats off to them. Just because the
capability isnt there isnt a good enough reason to cry because the
blower that is closest doesn't keep up. Make one that does and
lets go racing.

Michael Freedman

[No_Name_Bandit]

So your saying that paxton is supplying extrude hone scrolls with the real street kit...interesting, because I have yet to see one go out the door. The renegade kit use to come with an extrude hone scroll, but no longer does...In my opinion, the Novi 2000 is compareable in performance to the f1r According to ati's websit it is not. Now tell me why it is fair to come out with a different blower in renegade for the last three seasons? Now has anyone really said anything in regards to this? DI,D1r,f1,f1-r
Now the same goes for real street, p1sc,p1sc-2 which is not listed on the website anywhere??? "Just because the
capability isnt there isnt a good enough reason to cry because the
blower that is closest doesn't keep up. Make one that does and
lets go racing."

The point I am trying to make...so is it fair to just keep coming out with a blower that is eventually competive? The way I seen it is there is only one car in renegade with f1-r that is competitive...does this seem odd? Isn't real street based upon a "budget class" now we know some of these cars are out of budget, but you get the point...and being a budget class, I do think that it states an off the shelf blower is allowed...this is what paxton is supplying...This could be a debate that goes on and on and on and on...or it will go on until we run of race classes...

[Ricky@Vortech]

Ok Mike. Whatever you say. I don't write the rules and unfortunately for me I also don't get to tell them (NMRA/PRO) which of our units should be legal in which classes.

As far as the X-being under-rated on our site so it can fit into smaller classes???? I suppose your renegade car is making 1300hp then? I would figure you are turning that F1-R for everything it's worth to stay ahead of the field in competition. But then again maybe not. I'll tell you what, you come up with a map for that F1-R and I'll show you the one for the X. Oh wait I forgot...you can't get one of those.

F-series blowers are smog legal in what country? I am looking at ATI's latest E.O. approval sheet as I type. You shouldn't go posting what you don't know.

Dude, obviously you are very supportive of those that support you and that is very comendable but some of the things you are saying are totally rediculous and in my opinion have absolutely zero merit whatsoever. This argument can go on and on and on and all it will be is entertainment for the the others. And on that note....I'm bowing out.

See you you in BG

-R

[MichaelFreedman]

This is fun... :)


NNB : You say that Procharger has come out with a new blower
for Renegade every year. Can you fault a company for advancing
their product line. If I recall, The Procharger D1 held the record
in 2000, the D1R in 2001, and the F1R in 2002. (Ok, so your car
60's better than mine, and you ETd .1 better. Still had you by
5mph at 150lbs heavier, in the heat vs. the cool weather :) ).

As for only one car being competitive with the F1R.... I believe
the top blower cars in both FFW and NMRA are BY FAR F1Rs.
It's not my fault that nobody else can figure it out. And by
the way, the car is consistently .1 faster with the Auto. Just
can't get them to live.

RB : No. Im not making 1300hp. Does that mean that they are
overrating their blower? NO... DUH.... I have a .550 lift hydrolic
camshaft, and an 8 rib belt. Believe me, if you want proof that
the F1R will make 1300hp, it is coming. The X-Trim has been
proven to make WAY more power than you advertise. Just
because you guys choose to only list max cfm at peak efficiency
doesn't mean that it wont move more cfm and make more power
than you list.

As for a compressor map of the F1R, I have one for the F1R and also for the X-Trim. Not only that, I have owned an X-Trim, dynoed an X-Trim, and know exactly what it is capable of.

And as for Emissions legality. Becareful what you post. Id love
to see what EO list you are looking at. It's wrong. As for emissions legality.... The only thing that makes one emissions
legal is running a test on it. Not the blower design. Rather an
idiotic argument if you ask me.

As for my supporting Procharger? Yes I do. Why do I do that? Because they are innovative, continue to evolve, and make by far
the best supercharger on the planet. #1 in Pro, #1 in Outlaw,
#1 in Renegade, #1 in Real Street (Even though the blower is
smaller and spinning slower). When was the last time you saw
another supercharger company compete in Pro or Outlaw?
Why is that? Because they are still trying to live off of A-Trim
technology. Time to step it up, or get out of the market. Don't
try to hold back one company because you can't figure it out.

Pretty soon, you will be asking for the X-Trim to be legal in Real Street.... hehehehehehe Let's implement a size rule like in Renegade. It seems to work VERY well.

Michael Freedman

[Ricky@Vortech]

You are hilarious. Late.
-R

[No_Name_Bandit]

Nope you can't fault a company for advancing...Your right that you did set the records with those blowers...if you remeber correctly, the Novi also had to run a restrictor in the back of the blower to keep people happy...Not until last year I believe that they let the novi go with out it...Also the Novi was first in FFW to be in the 8's...Your blower has run in the 8's in nmra trim, as well as mine, but unfourtunately not during comp....I guess we will find out who will be the first this weekend. What I don't understand is if you say the car will run the numbers with the auto...(not trying to start a stick blower flame here) then why don't you put a c4 in the car, is there something that your trying to accomplish with the aod? I applaude you for setting the record...good job...what was the last race that an f1r won before atco??? Trough those years, I think that paxton has more renegade championship records in renegade, we hold the record right now in real street...we have run the same renegade blower as day one...If that doesn't say something then I don't know what too say...but I will say this...Mike...have a great evening...see you online...

PS...

Good luck to all the Racers this weekend...Drive safe, Drive careful...and no sleepin at the light this weekend...Good luck too all.

Kelly.

[pillow]

#1 - no name the first blower in the eights in fun ford was a d-1r on rick goss purple car in new hampshire last year the pass after mine with my nos car. it was not a big deal because I did it first and faster but bart did it at the next race ( texas )
#2 - to freedman and ricky I don't know what the big deal is about x vs f or what size my wife always tells me that size don't matter ( I hope she is not lying????? )
#3 - this stick blower thing rick goss's car also went 8.95 at carolina renegade last year with a t-400 AUTO in it!! also this year I tried a novi 2000 on my stick car it was fast but there is a reason I chose a f-1 , there are + and - to both but one out did the other for renegade form.
#4- In extr. it might be a little much that you say a X trim is only as good as a NOVI but in renegade a novi is only as good as a
Y-S???? so as a person going to race ext. do I save the money and buy a Y-S or a NOVI ( because they are all the same )

[JimBoneCrusher]

This is a question for all of you blower experts. Wouldn't the fact that the impellar is different between the three companies make a difference. I am sure that a cast impellar is nowhere near as good or efficient as a billet impellar. Plus, wouldn't be easier to change the characteristics of a billet impellar and then get one ground, rather than making a new casting for a cast impellar. I applaude Dan for all of the hard work at ProCharger, and right now, his blowers make a huge amount of power, but parity is what is being looked at here. The racers are not looking at who can go the fastest with a 9.5" blower. Everybody is talking about streetability, hell a Novi 3000 can be streetable and that has been proven. I think that the problem that Paxton and Vortech came too, was the race to make the biggest blower. That is what could have started the performance differences. As far as Mike Freedman supporting ATI. There is nothing wrong with it, but it is starting to look like you are giving a race interview and supporting all of your sponsors. There must be quite a sum of money or support pouring into that camp. I know that I wouldn't mind getting some help now and then. Anyways, enjoy your conversation and please inform me if the impellar might be the major issue he and not just the blower size.

[swilldup]

hey,you forgot to mention about the different impellers that procharger builds for each customer!! isnt that against the "off the shelf"
rule?

[MichaelFreedman]

JimBoneCrusher : I agree that there should be parity in the rules, and that that should be the most important thing. But there are a few problems with creating this parity.

1) You have one company who continues to grow, and refine their products. They discontinue the old design, and create new ones. In my opinion, this is expected. Procharger doesn't try to hide the fact that they are constently testing new ideas. The problem here is that when they discontinue an old model, what happens with the rules? You have to remember that there market is not for the racers. Racing is their advertising.

2) The other companies haven't shown any interest in trying to make parity. I have offered dyno time, a motor, and any kind of support necessary to do the testing to equalize boost levels. Only one company seems interested in this and that is Procharger.

3) If the one company isn't going to inovate, and grow... do we force the others to stagnate as well. I think that is completely unfair. Not only that, but trying to limit the work that a particular unit can do just leaves holes in the rules where unscrupulous people can get an advantage. (Extrude honed blowers, etc.... )

4) No, billet impellers don't make any more power than cast impellers. It is purely in the impeller design, and that only at a given speed. The impeller is just one of the factors that comes into play. The other major thing is the transmission. If the other guys want to try some other impellers, there are literally thousands of designs out there and they can look through the same catalog that they found the S-Trim impeller in and order 10 different ones. The problem is that the transmission is 10 years old and when you start moving air, you start breaking transmissions. Remember Junior Ibanez breaking an X-Trim a pass 5 YEARS AGO? Sure that blower made power. The X-Trim is a great impeller design. Problem is that the supporting hardware can't take the load and there has been no effort to fix the problem. So to make parity, instead of trying to keep up, doing the homework, and spending the time and $$$ to make a better product, the other camp wants this camp to slow down. That is ludicrous in my opinion.


Dale : U bet your ass Procharger builds different impellers. Hell I tried four different versions of the F1R supercharger in January and three more a few months ago. Why did I FLOG the crap out of my motor testing these blowers? Because I know that Procharger is trying to build the best blower within the rules. Maybe that explains why the F1R cars are 6-8mph faster than the competetors cars. The F1R is even smaller than the other brands. One other Renegade racer couldn't make the power with the existing impeller so they tried a couple more. And YES, running one of those prototype blowers WOULD have been illegal under NMRA rules because it wasn't a "production" blower. That is why all testing was done at local tracks, and on the dyno. Not only did they build a couple of different impellers to try on one particular car, but the owner of the company himself went to the track and helped change the blowers and evaluate the resulting data. If one of those blowers worked on that combiniation, it would be offered as a production blower to any and all who wanted one. ANYONE..... not just someone in the "loop". I put up the challange already. Anyone wants to bring an F1R to the track and put up some cash, Ill be glad to back to back it. ANY F1R. Why would I do that? Because EVERY SINGLE F1R THAT WAS SOLD IS THE SAME AS THE ONE I RUN!!!!!!!!! The same goes for the Real Street car, Any of the outlaw cars, and even the Pro cars. If you want the blower that is on Donny Walshes car, send your check for $5000 payable to Procharger and yes you too can have the SAME blower.

I dont understand how some of you guys can sit there and be satisfied with the status quo. This is heads up racing. He who works the hardest wins. I still don't understand those who don't work at all, and are happy with the same 10 year old, outperformed, and outclassed products.


I am a devoted Procharger fan. I became one way back when the company was new and their biggest blower didn't work on my motor. They worked with me and made a prototype blower that worked much better with my combination. That is something that no other supercharger company can or will do for the racer.
From that day on, I knew they would be the best. Why? Because they work to be the best. That is the same reason I run an Edelbrock head, and a Holley intake... they worked on their product until it was the best. I suppose we should block off half of the inlet of a Holley intake so that the GT40 can be competitive......

Michael Freedman


and just to answer the next question... I really don't have anything better to do. :)

[NoSlix]

SwillDale: I have an email from James Lawrence from late June stating that there's no rule that says anything you use has to be a "production" part that the whole world can buy.

Just out of curiosity, what car has gone 7s with an X at 3000lbs?

Shane Hill

[MichaelFreedman]

NoSlix : Im not exactly sure what the Keens weighed in Bradenton like 5 years ago. I believe it was in the neighborhood
of 3300 though. The went in the 7.70 range. Also, Jr. Ibanez with a 304ci motor at 2950 went in the 7s many many times. The problem was that you had to spin the blower pretty hard to make the power and the blowers would break repeatedly. That is why the Keens switched combinations, and Jr. went to the Turbo and then eventually bailed to run his business. (Ran out of money buying blowers... :) )

Michael Freedman

[No_Name_Bandit]

(Ran out of money buying blowers... )

Mike,
That was cold...Everybody has bought there fair share of blowers from all three Manufactuers...a shot to the knees man...

[SwillRacer]

Originally posted by NoSlix
SwillDale: I have an email from James Lawrence from late June stating that there's no rule that says anything you use has to be a "production" part that the whole world can buy.

Just out of curiosity, what car has gone 7s with an X at 3000lbs?

Shane Hill

Shane,

Dale was referring to this Renegade rule:

"Supercharger — Permitted superchargers are limited to NMRA ACCEPTED commercially available, standard mass-production-style "street/strip-type" systems, utilizing an 8-rib belt drive system. Any commercially available, NMRA ACCEPTED supercharger which fits within the "NMRA EFI/RENEGADE SPEC" will be permitted for competition in this eliminator. Internals of supercharger units (gearing, impeller, drivetrain) etc. may not be modified in any area. Intercoolers or after coolers are prohibited"

There's the rule. "STANDARD MASS-PRODUCTION" means that the impellar that was in the F1R that the NMRA approved for this class is the ONLY impellar legal for use in an F1R at NMRA events.

Either you misinterpreted what James wrote, or James better look at the rules and figure out which way it's going to be cuz it can't be both ways.....

[SwillRacer]

How come nobody is bitching about Mike Post and his custom BLOWZILLA ???

:D

[No_Name_Bandit]

What about Bart, and his one off xb1-a???

The rules are designed to protect the innocent...How many times have you seen tech tear down a blower? Is this because it is hard to determine which blower has what? Would be as easy as measuring inlet and discharge sizes????

[Ed Curtis]

Originally posted by SwillRacer
"cuz it can't be both ways..... "


:D :D :D Bwahaaahaaahaaa... :D :D :D

Did Scott say James goes both ways???? :p

OOPS... banned again :(

[NoSlix]

Ed likes livin on the edge, I see. hehehe

Scott: Here is a direct quote from a conversation via email that James and I had on a very similar issue in another class.

<Quote>We have never required blowers, turbo, etc. to be commercially available.

James<End quote>

[JimBoneCrusher]

Mike,

If I recall correctly, as per all of the 5.0 mags that I have, Junior Ibanez never went into the 7's with blower. It was not until he went to Turbo People and had Job work up a turbo system, that he finally ran in the 7's with the small motor.

If I am wrong, then it was never reported that he went 7's with the blower.

As far as JL not clarifying the impeller portion of the rule, it will come out next year. I would think that if the blower company does not send all of the different models for a blower, or configurations, then the only one sent would be the only one approved.

Just a thought, but what ever wins. Would it then be legal for Vortech Eng. and Paxton, to start offering different impellar designs for each individual racer? If so, I think Ricky and Kelly might have a new direction to in which to do some research.

Just some thoughts.

[Lumpy]

Well, here goes Freedman starting a pissing match again. I had to stick my nose into this one. I have a few points to make.

1. I own a Vortech R-trim that I drove on the street and track. After three years of Flat out abuse (and running the stock bypass valve) between 12 and 19# of boost, it has never given me any trouble. BTW, the serial number on the blower is R201.

2. So in theory, I could bolt up a Paxton transmission to a Vortech impeller and volute and run it in Renegade?

[Lumpy]

STICK BLOWER!!!

[NoSlix]

I agree with JimBone. As far as I can recall, Junior went an 8.12 with the XX trim. He then went to the turbo and immeadiately went in the 7s.

[DZIMMERMAN]

8.0's at the WFC in joliett Ill. and that should be a lession in engine efficiency.....ie. small motor small blower fast times how many guys are going 8.0's with a 306ci. with street heats and a xx trim??? By todays standards that car was an outdated SSO car and went faster than the 400 plus inch yates headed cars with bigger blowers (d3r's and the big Fseries blowers) and better chassis...Yes it was on a "W" tire but the car weighed over 3100# and had a full interior, that car would have went 7.80's or 7.90's with a D3r there is more to this than blower size and impellar...... The Keens went 7.70's with a 347 with street heats and a xx trim switched to a 378 with yates heads and slowed down put a stick in the car and slowed more put a procharger on got a handle on the clutch and were back in the 7.70's again why is that??? bigger blower bigger engine same times????? Just something to think about!

[oRaNgeT-76]

im pretty sure no body went in the 7s with an X-trim ....as a matter of fact im almost positive .....

[MichaelFreedman]

Mondo Bob Pucell went 7.40@188mph at 2750lbs with an X-Trim, Igloo and a 327. None of this is the point. What we need to do is make rules on specs. Then let the companies build blowers to fit within the specs. It is a nightmare to try to make existing products fit with the current rules. I feel bad for the rules makers trying to make this happen. They must be going crazy.

Im holding my breath... I hope they figure out a way to make it work soon.

Michael Freedman

[SwillRacer]

Shane,

James does not make the rules. However, he may be on a rules committee. Ask him. He will refer you to his tech department.....if your quote is fact, then it looks like James and the tech. dept. might want to address this because that quote clearly contradicts the rules in this particular instance. Maybe James was referring to something else....I don't know...

[RICH JELINEK]

While we are on the BLOWER SIZE subject, how about a D-2 being allowed in drag radial next year ? I'M KIND OF NEW TO THIS GAME & HAVE A CAR THAT WOULD FIT PERFECTLY INTO DR, - EXCEPT FOR THE D-2. IT SEEMS EVEN THOUGH THE DIMENSIONS DON'T QUITE FIT THE RULES, THE D-2 IS A GENERATION BEHIND THE F SERIES ( AND THE OTHER BRANDS NEWER BLOWERS) IN AIR FLOW NUMBERS ( ALTHOUGH I'M NOT SURE WHAT THE SPECS ARE). I'D LOVE TO RUN IN DRAG RADIAL, BUT I CAN'T COUGH UP THE $$$$ FOR A NEW BLOWER, SO I'M STUCK IN WILD/TRUE STREET (WHICH NMRA DOES NOT HAVE) OR SSO ( NOT A CHANCE AT BEING COMPETITIVE). ANY THOUGHTS ON THIS FROM YOU DRAG RADIAL GUYS, NMRA TECH, OR ANYBODY ELSE OUT THERE WOULD BE APPRECIATED!

- OH YEAH, HOW DOES A J-TRIM COMPARE UP TO A D-2 SPEC/SIZE WISE?

[SwillRacer]

Rich,

Do I know you? Your name sounds really familiar to me. Where'd you grow up?

[oRaNgeT-76]

WITH THE BIG SUCCESS OF THE F1 I DOUBT THE D2 WOULD BE ALLOWED ..... SHOOT THE VORTECH GUYS ARE FINALLY GONNA GET AN UPGRADE AFTER TWO YEARS OF BEGGING FOR THE j-TRIM.

[thebigdaddy]

Originally posted by NoSlix
Ed likes livin on the edge, I see. hehehe

Scott: Here is a direct quote from a conversation via email that James and I had on a very similar issue in another class.

<Quote>We have never required blowers, turbo, etc. to be commercially available.

James<End quote>


I know that the e-mail that was sent to James was in response to my Turbo....which I stated before Shane, that turbo was available to whoever wanted to pay for it. As a person that uses a Turbo I'm surprised at all the negative statements made about my turbo from you. Especially a person that participated in only 1 race this season.

THE BD

[NoSlix]

x

[SHOWTIME]

holy sh it batman the season just ended and the talk is flyin already:D

[thebigdaddy]

Originally posted by NoSlix
You got a problem with me, Dwayne? As I stated before many times..........Rick Head at Innovative told me it WASN'T available way back at the start of the year. I had money and he wouldn't sell me one. Are you calling me a liar? Maybe I just imagined the conversations I had with him when he told me he didn't have anything else. Once I saw it on your car, I didn't necessarily think it was fair that some people could use stuff that I was told was not commercially available. I asked a question and James gave me that answer. I left it at that. It wasn't until months later, when Josh from ITS bitched me out for supposedly talking cr*p about em(thanks for tellin em that, btw..........which is funny cause there's no telling how many turbos they've sold because of all the people I sent their way), that anyone told me they were indeed selling that turbo. You, yourself, at Maple Grove told me they weren't making it. Tell you what. I'll go play with the Outlaw boys next year where no ones bitching and whining about the rules and you can have DR. Go play with your turbo. :)

Shane no I don't have a problem with you, but what I do have a problem with is it seem like ever since your saw my Turbo is that you have had nothing nice to say about it. Futhermore you go on this board and start bitching about the new (hybrid) Turbo's and how Twins such be allowed and Superchargers all of a sudden need help. Superchargers have always needed help always always, always, you just seem to have made it very clear after my so called Turbo showed up. Weren't you at the PRI show just like I was? Well that was the first time that I have ever had saw that Turbo, so I inquired about it, and asked if it was legal for Drag Radial and I was told yes its legal, but I don't know if it will work. Plus I was told that no one even had this Turbo... WRONG. I got this Turbo 2 weeks before Florida, little did I know that Peter Champani was in Florida already testing the damn thing. Which means he had that Turbo at least a month before I did.. How did you think I felt after investing $15.000 in a Turbo that I was told that wouldn't work after I spent the money and put the turbo on my car. (They had Peter testing the turbo before me to run in DragRadial and I was their Biggest supporter). (HOW DID YOU THINK I FELT). You haven't said one good thing about the new Turbo or defended it since Maplegrove...and if I didn't know you I would think that you had a NOS or Supercharger on your car.
As far as calling you a liar.... you call it what you want to. You need to understand business, and how it works. If Procharger had a new blower for Renegade and needed it tested. Who do you think will get that Charger for testing? Jimmy L or a guy that only runs Renegade occasionally and has never won a Renegade race before. As far as selling turbo's for Innovative I've sent twice as many people to them for turbo's.. more than you and Peter C and he still got that turbo before me, and I've never said one thing about it. Fact is Joe Desilva, Job Spetter, and I was the only guys runnning Innovatives Turbos on our cars.
Listen Shane if run want to go run Outlaw go. But don't call the people who fight like men and women for what they feel is right for a class that has come a long way whinners and cry babies. If I can recall wasn't Pro and Outlaw guys the biggest whinners in the NMRA for the first 2 years or have you forgotten...Everything about Job Spetters car and Joe Desilva's car was illegal according to the racers and not the rule book. (Turbo, Down pipe, interior, intake, boost controller, rear suspenion, and they prevailed) Now you want to say that Outlaw doesn't have whinners, while I'll tell you this as soon as you joint it will have whinners.. You'll never be a winner because your a quitter. You quit DR, Innovative, And DFI, Y... Shane because your feelings got hurt. You know the History of Drag Radial and I dare you call this class a bunch of whinners!!!! Your mad at Innovative so you go to Harry, got mad At Job Jr for not having time to tune your car, so you tell people Fel-pro is better and you put it back on your car, mad because you didn't have the GTB Turbo on your car before me and Peter did, so now Drag Radial Sucks...
While Shane guess what? Last year I had a chance to win the Title at my home track, but I didn't make the race. Not because my car was broke as the Race Pages reported, all I had to do was go over to Jesel and get a set of lifters, a week earlier. The reason I didn't fix my car was Job couldn't tune it. So not only did I not race, I went from maybe winning the Championship, to #5, after 4 years of trying like hell to be the first car in the NMRA in the 8's on Drag Radial and watching Chris Little do it first..( It Hurt LIke Hell !!!!!) especially having to read about about it, and listen to it the rest of the year.... Still got DFI on my car Shane and Job Jr is still the tuner. Still got Innovative Turbo on my car Shane even though after 3 years of being the only Car in Drag Radial running there stuff, they gave someone else that new turbo first to run against me in the same class. Still have wolfe racecraft on my car even though it takes forever to get my phone calls returned, even after my car help them sell ton of swaybars...so when things don't go my way I don't pout, or quit, or even talk about others, seems like your the one bitching and whinning Shane..
PS: Should I refer to you as NoRadial now...because Outlaw uses Slix on their cars.

The BD

[NoSlix]

BD,

Most of that is not even worth responding to. But to set the record straight....I still have an Innovative turbo on my car, not a PTE. Get your facts straight. And I was upset at Job because he told me he'd tune the car, gave me a date, and then never bothered to call me to tell me he didn't have time. Just blew me off after I took off work and was halfway to Dallas to meet him. That cost me about $700 in lost time and diesel(any wonder I was a little bit pissed). I had to try and hunt him down through you a week before Columbus only to find he wouldn't even send me a base startup program. DFI may have worked great with the proper tuner but Job didn't want that job so I went back to FAST and have had great luck ever since.

Notice up above where Mike Freedman was saying they did all their testing on new impellers away from the NMRA race? That's the reason I asked James about it. Just like you, I asked if it was legal. In fact, I asked at Columbus. What's different between you calling around to find out if Jimmy Byrne had coilovers and minitubs and me asking about a new turbo. If that makes me a bad guy, so be it. Have fun. :)

[peterc]

big d.... just to set the record straight... i did not have the turbo until about two days before i left for orlando... the car finished at lugos dyno... so as far as testing... i was waiting just as you were... the car was blowing through the converter on the dyno... so the tuning there was pretty useless... i didnt get a converter in the car until later that week and went right to the track.. just to set the record straight.... pete

[thebigdaddy]

Originally posted by peterc
big d.... just to set the record straight... i did not have the turbo until about two days before i left for orlando... the car finished at lugos dyno... so as far as testing... i was waiting just as you were... the car was blowing through the converter on the dyno... so the tuning there was pretty useless... i didnt get a converter in the car until later that week and went right to the track.. just to set the record straight.... pete

The fact is that you had the turbo before me and I was told there were no others at the time. You were already in Florida testing before i got mine.

The BD

[thebigdaddy]

Originally posted by NoSlix
BD,

Most of that is not even worth responding to. But to set the record straight....I still have an Innovative turbo on my car, not a PTE. Get your facts straight. And I was upset at Job because he told me he'd tune the car, gave me a date, and then never bothered to call me to tell me he didn't have time. Just blew me off after I took off work and was halfway to Dallas to meet him. That cost me about $700 in lost time and diesel(any wonder I was a little bit pissed). I had to try and hunt him down through you a week before Columbus only to find he wouldn't even send me a base startup program. DFI may have worked great with the proper tuner but Job didn't want that job so I went back to FAST and have had great luck ever since.

Notice up above where Mike Freedman was saying they did all their testing on new impellers away from the NMRA race? That's the reason I asked James about it. Just like you, I asked if it was legal. In fact, I asked at Columbus. What's different between you calling around to find out if Jimmy Byrne had coilovers and minitubs and me asking about a new turbo. If that makes me a bad guy, so be it. Have fun. :)

First of all I didn't call around to find out if Jimmy Brynes had Coil overs..or Mini tubs. Everyone came to me and said he was illegal and I said that's for the NMRA to deal with if he is. I bought it up in a conversation I had with Your X and that's as far as it went. Nor did I ever call the NMRA and ask about Jimmy Brynes car or if it was legal..Never did Shane so I don't know were your going with you did the same thing i did by calling the NMRA about the turbo. As far as the turbo you have on your car is still an Innovative turbo of course it is, you wouldn't run a dual ballbearing t-76 turbo in Outlaw would you Shane.

Shane go luck to what ever you do next season or in the future, whether it's Outlaw, RS,DR,PRO whatever just have fun.

The BD

[93MustangLX306]

I dunno, I have to agree with BD on this one. I may not be a key player but damnitt I try to do my best to help promoste DR just like everyone else.

But when I looked into a turbo, I knew turbos worked because of BD , and the namesake he carries, and the professionalism that he shows towards ALL racers. Wether they are in the other lane, or some kid like myself that never met him but a few times.

Talking about hybrids.....Drag Radial is a hybrid, nothign about the class is normal, and that is part of the reason racers race it. Racers set out to acheive new standards and to become faster,better, and more known.

I am not going to jump into who had what first, all I am going to say is...the class is getting HUGE and going faster and faster every race. And aside from the competetiveness of DR, it is like one big family.

*everyone can qoute me on this*...But come the end of next season when I show up at the races with a new car or maybe someone elses car that has been proven, How much heckiling am I going to hear about, *oh you didnt build it* someone else did.

Fact to Fact, yes it is cheaper for me to buy a proven car than to build one myself. I have not the knowledge or resources to build a new car. I may be just another kid now, but we'll see what happens after I graduate, and who still wants to help me out.

I know 1 person that will help a new guy out, and help better the class.


Scott K > out

[Griffey]

Just get the car done and make some races.Don't worry about what anyone else has in/on there car.That's something you can't control.You should maybe put a little faith in the NMRA and their tech staff in keeping all cars that run the classes legal.I personally don't care what Big D has/dosen't have.I know what we have ,and it will be in Orlando ready to race.

[streetwarrior]

Originally posted by MichaelFreedman
What we need to do is make rules on specs. Then let the companies build blowers to fit within the specs. It is a nightmare to try to make existing products fit with the current rules.

Mike I just wanna throw my $.02 in here, even though I am not racing in Renegade. Instead of making size rules or limiting factors, why not blow the whole thing wide open, and FORCE Vortech and Paxton out of the '80s? Either that, or outlaw every current blower and then write rules on size limitations... upper and lower limits on everything that makes a blower tick, that is about the only way you can equalize blowers, plus it would spur development of all three companies. If you made a standard housing and a standard transmission ratio, that would narrow the technology down to impeller design, that would really make the companies shine. Just my opinion.

[SwillRacer]

Originally posted by streetwarrior
Mike I just wanna throw my $.02 in here, even though I am not racing in Renegade. Instead of making size rules or limiting factors, why not blow the whole thing wide open, and FORCE Vortech and Paxton out of the '80s? Either that, or outlaw every current blower and then write rules on size limitations... upper and lower limits on everything that makes a blower tick, that is about the only way you can equalize blowers, plus it would spur development of all three companies. If you made a standard housing and a standard transmission ratio, that would narrow the technology down to impeller design, that would really make the companies shine. Just my opinion.

Don't take this the wrong way, but that is absolutely the dumbest thing I have read here in at least a month. You are fooling yourself if you think Vortech, Paxton, ProCharger, Blowzilla or anyone will play ball and dump all kinds of $$$ and R&D into building a new blower to be used specifically for NMRA EFI/R. There already are working rules in place for blowers in REN. Let's just FOLLOW THE current RULES and let the best man win. "Commercially available" and "off the shelf" in my opinion does not mean: go out and get a custom impellar made.

We'll see how well those Procharged AUTOMATIC transmission cars do next year.....

[MiTe Pakman]

Originally posted by SwillRacer
Don't take this the wrong way, but that is absolutely the dumbest thing I have read here in at least a month. You are fooling yourself if you think Vortech, Paxton, ProCharger, Blowzilla or anyone will play ball and dump all kinds of $$$ and R&D into building a new blower to be used specifically for NMRA EFI/R. There already are working rules in place for blowers in REN. Let's just FOLLOW THE current RULES and let the best man win. "Commercially available" and "off the shelf" in my opinion does not mean: go out and get a custom impellar made.

We'll see how well those Procharged AUTOMATIC transmission cars do next year.....
Just for the record didn't a Team Larocca auto car go 9.14 in Atco this year?

[SwillRacer]

Yes, Nick Trombetta went 9.17@148mph with an automatic tranny in the car. Kurgan, Post, Thomas, Tobener and others have all been quicker/faster with a VORTECH or PAXTON under the hood. Even our heavy pig went 148mph at Bowling Green w/auto tranny at 3500lbs in higher humidity and higher altitude.

The Procharger I'm sure is a fine product. But it is not the end-all be-all blower like certain people claim. I am by no means knocking anyone who runs the Procharger or the company itself. Everyone points their finger at LaRocca and says "Wow....that procharger must really work." That's what Jimmy would want you to think. He's a business man. He sells and installs Procharger stuff. He's doing an excellent job showcasing his product and his shops skills. You cannot go wrong by being one of Jimmy's customers. But guess what....it takes alot more than just the blower to get that car down the track as quick as it does. Jimmy & crew have done their homework and put in the R&D time. Their whole combo works. THEY deserve alot of credit. I'll bet they could go just as fast or faster with a Vortech or Paxton under the hood. Bart has done it at legal weight in competition over a year ago. Post is real-real close.

Like I said b4, we'll see how the Procharger cars fair next year when stick tranny's aren't allowed. The playing field will be even and you'll see which blower company puts out the most efficient blower. My money says it will be a VORTECH.

Discuss...

[93MustangLX306]

Lets not forget the awesome motor and parts list that is on the Freedman car too. That is after all an ex SS/O car wasnt it?


But not to take light away, LaRocca and company bust there asses on R+D and have a great program, that coupled with a great blower wins races.


Scott K

[JimBoneCrusher]

Freedman's car is an Ex SSO car, but he built almost an entirely new motor. As I recall, he was selling everything on the old combo while he was building his new engine combo. Mike does use the best parts available, but the secret is that he put together a group of parts that works well together. He said that he did not blow a headgasket all season, and that just goes to show you how well the combo is tuned. As the "Sheepster" said earlier, it will be interesting to see how the cars do next year. The main thing will be for the cars from LaRocca's to keep the tranny alive after one pass.

[streetwarrior]

Originally posted by SwillRacer
Don't take this the wrong way, but that is absolutely the dumbest thing I have read here in at least a month. You are fooling yourself if you think Vortech, Paxton, ProCharger, Blowzilla or anyone will play ball and dump all kinds of $$$ and R&D into building a new blower to be used specifically for NMRA EFI/R. There already are working rules in place for blowers in REN. Let's just FOLLOW THE current RULES and let the best man win. "Commercially available" and "off the shelf" in my opinion does not mean: go out and get a custom impellar made.

We'll see how well those Procharged AUTOMATIC transmission cars do next year.....

Scott, I think you took me the wrong way, all of these companies (well, technically) are always designing and updating new chargers anyway, so why not make a standard housing for Renegade?? It's not like they couldn't sell the head unit just like any other blower they make, and it would totally eliminate the "Well, your charger is under/overrated to fit in this class." arguments. Could some companies be AFRAID of using a standardized housing and pulley setup, making the only variable their impellers? I think that would be BY FAR the best test of a blower company!! Everyone always says their blower company is the most advanced, instead of designing rules around existing blowers, make the blowers FIT the rules! I say instead of me being crazy, the blower companies should step the hell up and settle this war!

[SwillRacer]

Originally posted by streetwarrior
Scott, I think you took me the wrong way, all of these companies (well, technically) are always designing and updating new chargers anyway, so why not make a standard housing for Renegade?? It's not like they couldn't sell the head unit just like any other blower they make, and it would totally eliminate the "Well, your charger is under/overrated to fit in this class." arguments. Could some companies be AFRAID of using a standardized housing and pulley setup, making the only variable their impellers? I think that would be BY FAR the best test of a blower company!! Everyone always says their blower company is the most advanced, instead of designing rules around existing blowers, make the blowers FIT the rules! I say instead of me being crazy, the blower companies should step the hell up and settle this war!

I don't think you fully appreciate how much R&D, time and $$$ goes into the developement of a new product like a blower. A company just doesn't sit down one day and 'whip out' a new blower cuz Joe Schmoe on the internet says so. When a company comes out with a new product, there is usually a business case which supports it. Why should ANY blower company invest in developing a standard blower housing for our little ol' Renegade class? In the grand scheme of things Renegade means diddley squat. Most blower companies make supercharger systems for REN, but also for Chevy's, Imports, Boats, and Trucks. Renegade blowers are a very small peace of their business. I highly doubt it would be profitable for any blower company to do what you are suggesting.

You say: "make the blowers FIT the rules" What are you talking about? Why are you asking for a spec blower housing? If you want cookie-cutter racing, go check out NASCAR.

Here are the rules and the blowers that fit them:
(right out of the rulebook)

NMRA EFI/Renegade Spec:
Discharge diameter (external O.D.): 3.000-inch maximum
Inlet diameter (external O.D.): 4.000-inch maximum
Impeller diameter (tip-to-tip, as measured): 6.600-inch maximum
Housing diameter (greatest external diameter of housing, not to include the discharge itself): 10.000-inch
In the case of non-centrifugal superchargers (i.e., roots or screw type) only those listed below are permitted.

Permitted Superchargers— Current list of superchargers which fit within the NMRA EFI/Renegade accepted "spec".

Vortech A,B,S,T-trim Supercharger Systems*
Vortech YS-trim Supercharger Systems
ATI Procharger P600*
ATI Procharger D-1, D-1SC, D-1R
ATI Procharger P-1SC, P-1SCH
ATI Procharger F1R
Paxton SN, VR4-series*
Paxton Novi 1000, 2000
Powerdyne*
SVO*
KB Whipplecharger*
Saleen*
Eaton*

All these blowers FITwithin the rules. Pick one and use it. You need to do some research before you talk bro......

[streetwarrior]

Scott, I can surely see all of those blowers fit the allowed rules, but you still missed my main point.... since it's obvious you run Vortech, you have no problem with the fact that Vortech runs a bigger blower in that class. You also stand to lose something if it turns out true that Vortech cannot compete in the impeller wars. I think a standardized housing, transmission, and pulley sizes would be good for everyone, it would stop the bitching about sizes, assure everyone there was no special housings, etc. For example, let's look at Real Street for a sec. You're telling me that it's FAIR and EQUAL that with the allowed pulley sizes that the Novi 2000 makes 3-4 PSI more than the other blowers out there? And I do understand the cost involved, Procharger has been spending TONS of money in R&D every single year, they have been coming out with a new blower and releasing it and making a profit on the thing. You can't tell me you think an F-3R has that big of a crowd? That last year's discontinued blower made them so much money it paid for all of this year's redesign? Just because they don't ride out a design for 10 years doesn't mean the old one was bad, or that the new one isn't better! It means they want to offer the best blower possible, and if it isn't as big as the competition but makes more power, it MUST be a better blower, right? So let Vortech and Paxton step up, along with Procharger, and use the SAME housing for all 3 companies, and let their R&D fight it out. This will benefit every single one of their customers, not just Renegade, because the R&D will be able to carry over to their whole line, reducing costs dramatically. Personally, I think the blower companies would WANT to step up to the challenge, to prove to their customers they know what they are doing! Who cares that they had the first blower for the Mustang? Or that they had the first blower in the 11s? This is 2002 Scott, it's what have you done for me lately, not 10 years ago. Peace.

[MichaelFreedman]

Two things in reponse to this one :

The whole point that I was trying to get at was that there should be dimension rules in all classes just like there are in Renegade. That way if you want to run an inferior product, it's up to you. If the blower companies feel like their blower isn't up to par with anothers, build one within the rules to fit it. Dont limit the work of the blower like they do in RS. That is totally unfair and leaves us people who play by the rules wondering if some others are playing around with gear ratios and what not. Any R&D done to better Renegade and especially Real Street would directly relate to their bread and butter costomers.

As for fully appreciating how much R&D, time and $$$ go into the developement of a new product.... This one makes me laugh. One company works with racers, betters their blowers, and gets them right out into the market. Procharger, in two days!!!!, made two different blowers for Mike Post to try. The other two companies haven't changed their product in like 5 or more years. (Or atleast they don't get those changes to market). Currently the biggets blower in Renegade and RS is the Paxton. Procharger has considered making a blower that would be as big as the rules allow, but don't feel it is necessary to compete with the other companies. The reason is that they have perfected impeller design, and can take advantage of the small housing. Meanwhile the other guys whine and cry to get their only blower they carry that was designed more than 5 years ago into Real Street. The Novi dwarfs the other two blowers, (S-Trim and P1SC) and it still get's it's ass kicked. They have the housing, the volute... why not make a new impeller and take advantage of it. Why not put the Novi 1000 in Real Street....


What it comes down to is politics. It's unfortunate that the people who work the hardest have to be held back because another company wants to live off of its past success. Times have changed, and they continue to change... step up or step out.

Michael Freedman

[MichaelFreedman]

Unfortunately, I do have to agree with Scott on one issue. Completely changing transmissions is an issue. This is why Vortech and Paxton haven't progressed at all. They can't support the larger impellers with their gearsets. That is an incredible expense to develope something like that. Impellers on the other hand are a different story. In my opinion, the rules should specify a volute size inlet and outlet, and an inducer size. Anything else should be left up to the manufacturers. What may happen is that V and P get off their butts and develope a new piece. I just cant stand the rules being made to accomodate 10 yr old technology. Could you imagine if they made the rules in such a way that you had to run a 93 or older body style..... This is the same thing. Time for progress!!!!!

Michael Freedman

[PulpDogsRacing]

Originally posted by MichaelFreedman
The Novi dwarfs the other two blowers, (S-Trim and P1SC) and it still get's it's ass kicked.

That's funny. I thought it was a Novi car that won the championship. I also believe that the Novi won the most races this season.

ATI reminds me of Microsoft. They rush out this beta model and call it the end-all-be-all, market it well, then a couple months later, here is the new and improved end-all-be-all. You can call it progression or coming out of the stone age, but I think it just a way to keep making money. And in that department, I congratulate them. I mean hey, it worked for Bill Gates. Just because you can't get a half dozen different blowers allowed in Real Street until you start winning like you did in Renegade, is no reason to start trashing everybody else.

Think about it, maybe the old lady is thinking it is about time for an update on you, jk. :D

[SwillRacer]

First: Mike, you talk a good game, but you are unwilling to back it up. You have been taken up on your own bet and now you are trying to worm you way out of it. If you believe in everything you have said in that last post, you should have no problem backing it all up on a race track. Anyone reading this can go over to the Swill msg. board to see all the smack this guy has been talking and the bets he's been throwing around. Actually, it is all available here on THIS message board too...(what was I thinking?)Now your bluff has been called. The line has been drawn, all you have to do is meet that person half way and not expect them to drive half way across the country to your doorstep to take YOU up on YOUR bet which never included a clause about "driving all the way here to meet me".......that's all I'm sayin bout that.

If the F1R is such a great blower, why is your car the ONLY one going fast with it? Answer that? Look at the evidence. Post(last year's CHAMP) tried it, couldn't run faster than a 9.30 with what, 4 F1R's with different impellar designs? But he can run 9.0's all day long with a Vortech or Paxton without any other changes? Are you going to give me the same old line that 'he doesn't know what he's doing'??? Tobener the FFW 2000 REN champ has tried them all and stays with Paxton. Does he not know what he's doing? Why should Vortech/Paxton redesign something that works well? Tell me this, if you put the same effort into a your combo, but with a Vortech instead, would your car slow down? I personally doubt it. Don't let your ego get in the way of giving an honest answer. I applaud Procharger's efforts. Competition drives the business. But you really have a superiority complex when it comes to the Vortech/Paxton vs. Procharger debate. The point I'm trying to make with this 'Street Warrior' yahoo is that no blower company, even Procharger, will make a spec blower housing for Renegade. Even you will agree with that. So what's gonna happen next year Mike? You'll be off in XS land with the Pro Series. Stick tranny's are illegal next year, who's gonna step up and carry the Procharger banner? I can think of 4 Vortech or Paxton cars who have run faster than the next Procharger car(Nick Trombetta). You told me Mi-Te would run mid 9's and Sydors would run 9-teens before the year was out because they switched to Procharger. No disrespect to MiTe or Sydors, but that's what he said. Did that happen? No. Again Mike, who other than you runs better than the Vortech/Paxton cars?????? All the rest of us other REN racers hear from you are boast about Procharger this, Procharger that.....then when your claims don't come true, there are excuses....."so-and-so is blowing through the converter, we can't keep a tranny in the car." I could make a list. The only people that can back up your claims about Procharger seems to be you and Jimmy and my guess is that your procharger is only a small part of the equation.

Second: Street Warrior you don't seem to understand that there is very little money in what you are proposing. WHY should VORTECH, Procharger, Paxton, or anyone develope a new line of "spec" blowers for renegade when they've already got product lines to support it? Just because you want it that way? What are you one of Freedman's clones? Sure YOU think it would be a great idea. Call up Procharger and ask them....I'd love to hear that conversation. They'd laugh your ass right off the phone cuz THEY'VE ALREADY DEVELOPED 2 BLOWERS THAT FIT INTO THIS CLASS(the D-series and the F-series) <---- notice I use the "series" designation because with so many CUSTOM and ILLEGAL impellars flying around out there these days, the F1R really doesn't qualify as "standard, mass produced" anymore.

Third: You both talk about Real Street. I don't race Real Street. Therefore, I won't even bother talking about it.

GIVE 'EM HELL PULPDOG!!!!

[stang_racer89]

Run whatever blower you want. Obviously NMRA's rules are just a suggestion anyway.

Talking about end-all be-alls... The end was about 5+ yrs ago for V and P. I can't remeber the last Pro or Outlaw car with one of those blowers. Something about they kept eating themselves then contaminating the motor.

Peace

[pillow]

why is there all this crying about blowers???
fact 1 pro charger cars have been the fastest all year.
fact 2 although none of you guys like to come over and race were the rules let you get more creative with your combo no blower car can run with me. ( true I've been beat by some but that is racing , **** happens, but not one can out quilify me )
fact 3 rick goss car went 8.97, 8.99 with a auto in it last year
fact 4 all of you nmra guy winne that we have to weight more then ffw that did not help you at cordova now did it . besides my car weighs in at 3275 after ever pass a hole 25 lb more then all of you ( besides you mike but if I wanted to race at 3450 I would race a truck )
fact 5 all of you guys said that everyone tried to go to a f1 but went back to a pax or vor!! wow lets see we tried something new it did not work right away so we went back to what worked. wow was that a third grade guess or what???
when rick took the stick out of his car and put in a auto his car slowed down 4 tenth that right the best he could muster was a 9.35 all day long. ( I was beating he ass retarded ) he changed the cam and the blower pulley and picked up 2 to 3 tenths of it and after abut the 4 or 5 converter the car went 8.86 at 155 then he put a cooler on it and went 8.56 now is racing stock sup. stuff around here.
so it can be done but like anything eles it takes time and MONEY.
p.s. nmra if you are afraid of the sticks just say so don't just outlaw them!!!! swill also your statement about next year no stick allowed to make for fair ground!! when as racing been fair??? do you think that marsh has the fastest pro car in the world because the rules are fair ( no ) money and R&D make the fastest cars!!!!! Are any of you guys going to step it up and run eights ( just asking ) oh yea you guys have all ready used up all your rules and can't get it done so I guess nmra will have to make some changes or you will all be in the same 9.0s - 9.3s range again. ( sounds like fun ) I'm tired of typing so now I let the next internet tuff guy step up . one last thing there is on more renegade race of the year out 36- oct 27 in north carolina
so will the next one please step up:D

[93MustangLX306]

The NOVI 1000 uses a totally different bracketry and will not support the power that a S,P1-SC, or 2000 can come close to. THATS WHY.!!!!


Also the 1000 is dimentionally tiny compared to the other blowers, just look at it.


As for Freedman/LaRocca doing well next year....I am nto positive so maybe Mike can chime in, but didnt that same car go like a tenth faster with the AUTO????

The only problem I see is how long they stay together, and judging by the company and manufacturers that team choses to use, I am willign to bet the manufacturer will supply them with a winny tranny.


Then again, thats just my thinking...there is more to racing than money, you have to be smart with what you run, and what parts you use.

Scott K

[SwillRacer]

Originally posted by pillow
why is there all this crying about blowers???

*I don't know, ask Freedman....he consistantly rips Vortech/Paxton and is not provoked. BTW, who is "pillow"??? Your profile doesn't give any names......

fact 1 pro charger cars have been the fastest all year.

*In NMRA Renegade, only one single Procharger car is fast. I think that is more because of the quality of the team itself, rather than the blower they run.

fact 2 although none of you guys like to come over and race were the rules let you get more creative with your combo no blower car can run with me. ( true I've been beat by some but that is racing , **** happens, but not one can out quilify me )

*Who are you? Why would we come run w/you other than the two races we hit this year in our spare time? Your car is built to FFW rules which allow you to run faster. Why don't you come run w/us?

fact 3 rick goss car went 8.97, 8.99 with a auto in it last year

*OK....8.97 vs. 9.04 that Post ran in absolutely HORRIBLE conditions at Maple Grove....not much ET difference. Could have been due to weather. Mike could have run 8's....

fact 4 all of you nmra guy winne that we have to weight more then ffw that did not help you at cordova now did it . besides my car weighs in at 3275 after ever pass a hole 25 lb more then all of you ( besides you mike but if I wanted to race at 3450 I would race a truck )

*Uh we weighed 3350 at that race....Post and Kurgan normally run alot faster, both had probs that weekend. Spain fixed his problems too since then and ran 150mph in BG at NMRA weight....you should have come out to an NMRA race this year and strap another 175lbs to your stick car and we'll see how you do.

fact 5 all of you guys said that everyone tried to go to a f1 but went back to a pax or vor!! wow lets see we tried something new it did not work right away so we went back to what worked. wow was that a third grade guess or what???

* If this is who I think it is and F1R is sooooo badass, then how come you haven't been able to go as fast w/the procharger as you did with the nitrous???? Maybe cuz you started using a legal mass air meter?

when rick

*Rick who?

took the stick out of his car and put in a auto his car slowed down 4 tenth that right the best he could muster was a 9.35 all day long. ( I was beating he ass retarded ) he changed the cam and the blower pulley and picked up 2 to 3 tenths of it and after abut the 4 or 5 converter the car went 8.86 at 155 then he put a cooler on it and went 8.56 now is racing stock sup. stuff around here.

*are you even talking about Renegade anymore?

so it can be done but like anything eles it takes time and MONEY.
p.s. nmra if you are afraid of the sticks just say so don't just outlaw them!!!!

*Afraid of sticks? Where's the logic in that statement? The reason they are outlawing them is because it is too hard to police whether shifts are clutch activated or not.....

swill also your statement about next year no stick allowed to make for fair ground!! when as racing been fair???

*Ok, you don't know what you are talking about. You think you do, but you really don't have a clue. It has nothing to do w/NMRA rules. Freedman knows what I am talking about. If Mike wants to tell you about it, then he can.

do you think that marsh has the fastest pro car in the world because the rules are fair ( no ) money and R&D make the fastest cars!!!!! Are any of you guys going to step it up and run eights ( just asking ) oh yea you guys have all ready used up all your rules and can't get it done so I guess nmra will have to make some changes or you will all be in the same 9.0s - 9.3s range again. ( sounds like fun )

*Bla-Bla-bla-bla-bla-bla-bla.....I didn't see the Procharged stick-shifted Freedman/LaRocca car run any 8's in NMRA competition. If it's so easy, where were YOU all year????

I'm tired of typing so now I let the next internet tuff guy step up . one last thing there is on more renegade race of the year out 36- oct 27 in north carolina

*no thanks.....car will be apart by then....

so will the next one please step up:D

[JimBoneCrusher]

Scott,

Can't you tell by the statements made, that "Pillow" is most likely Mike Freeman for Lethal Injection Racing. Just look at how he relates to how well he qualifies and the sort. Also not that he does not mention anything about the fact that FFW allows FAST and DFI Gen VII as engine management systems. I don't care about who has the fastest Renegade, but who has the most fun while racing Renegade.

[MiTe Pakman]

Originally posted by JimBoneCrusher
Scott,

I don't care about who has the fastest Renegade, but who has the most fun while racing Renegade.
Jim I couldn't of said it better. Lets face it there is no way you can make money racing here or there. Put it this way even if you dominated the class and with all your contingency you'd be lucky to take home 6k a month. So it all boils down to what jim says. FUN! Remeber that guys? So lets lay this blower thing to rest already it is truley old. Any combo can be made to work with enough testing and research. and oh ya money.

[SwillRacer]

Originally posted by MiTe Pakman
Any combo can be made to work with enough testing and research. and oh ya money.

Exactly my point....

[No_Name_Bandit]

I don't care about who has the fastest Renegade, but who has the most fun while racing Renegade.

That is what it is all about...I don't think there is a another racer that wouldn't offer help to another, that wouldn't extend a handshake, a beer, a bottle of water, racing is about the friendship made...I know that Scott has made plenty of friends with inflatiable sheep...

K.

[pillow]

were was I all year ?? I was running ffw all year( du ) and they have a **** pile of races so I don't have any spare time to run some other races. the reason I went with ffw and not nmra was due to the fact that at least when you have a problem george and joe will at least talk to you about it. Not like james and his staff. all I ever got was told to write him a letter and they would review it. now about my mass air thing. I was not big then or ever joe never said that I was some people just took it on there self to say that everone was. Then everone that was not there beleved it because people alway look for a reason that some one is running faster then them. and Scott my nos car only went 8.97 3 times and only 154 at 3050lb my procharger car as gone abest of ( in a event ) 8.89 and at 156.6 at 3275 so I think my procharge is faster and more consistent. ( same mass air on both motors )
last if you think that I did not try the novi your not a bright as you seem, ask Ricky, he had his sales men call me twice and offer me a novi at a great deal and then asked me if he would see me with a novi on my car in orlando. I can tell you that it had very little to do about performance for the reason that I choose a f1R. both made good power one made more at some rpm the other made more in other rpm. when it came right down to it with a 8 rib set up the procharger had more good points then bad plus the novi was broke.
last here are a list of reasons that you did not see me at a nmra race.
1 I have speed pro-------maybe a avange
2 I have a after market steering shaft --- real avange
3 I have the rad. set 3 inch foward in the car --- avange to move weight foward in the car ( I don't think so ) it makes it nice to mess with the belts
4 I have no air filter --------what ever I'l put one on
5 I have a solid front valance--------what ever a GT havs the same amout of closed area in the front of the car
6 my paint job was too loud for them--- just kidding but if you think that any of them are a real reason why I should not be able to run with you guys at nmra let me know ( besides # 1 )

[SwillRacer]

Mike,

I don't know why you made this a pissing contest between the NMRA and FFW. That has nothing to do with any of my posts before you jumped into this thread. I personally don't care where you run because it doesn't matter who's next to the Swill car in the other lane or what your combo is or who the sanctioning body is, we're going to try and beat you. So forget about all that crap.

Originally posted by pillow
last if you think that I did not try the novi your not a bright as you seem, ask Ricky, he had his sales men call me twice and offer me a novi at a great deal and then asked me if he would see me with a novi on my car in orlando.

*Hmmmmm, that's not the way I heard it. And I heard it from the source....

I can tell you that it had very little to do about performance for the reason that I choose a f1R.

*Yep, it had to do with the fact that you wanted the blower for free and they wouldn't give it to you for nothing.

both made good power one made more at some rpm the other made more in other rpm.

*Mike, this has been my point of contention with Freedman all along. Thankyou for validating what I've been saying. The Procharger I'm sure is a great blower, I never said it wasn't. But it's certainly not the only blower in the world. We went w/Vortech because they have a very long history of success and the service that they provide are second to none. Anyone would have a hard time arguing that point. I can call Ricky at any time and he will do whatever it takes to help out his racers.

when it came right down to it with a 8 rib set up the procharger had more good points then bad plus the novi was broke.

*True, Paxton had some probs. earlier this year, but that's all been taken care of. I know several stories about broken Prochargers in the Outlaw ranks I could share, but what's the point? $hit happens. This is racing, when you push your equipment hard, it may break. I'd be interested in hearing the differences you found btwn. the Procharger and the Novi. Let's take this to the email. I'm sick of this thread and public debates. Nobody wins.


Laaaaaaaaaaaaate,

[pillow]

I will let you buy me that drink at the PRI show, see ya

[SwillRacer]

With all the free beer we've provided for anyone and everyone this year, we're expecting YOU and EVERYONE ELSE to buy the Swillers some drinks!!!!

[93MustangLX306]

I do believe Miller Lite is the preferred beverage of racers and the SWILLERS!!!!


SO get ready for a keg, and enjoy the smoothness as it flows down,



Scott Kalisch
NMRA O/C 9310