New F/S rules changes?

[streetwarrior]

Uncle Robin, or someone in the know, please help me out. I'm looking at running F/S next year, but I have been told by a very reliable source that major changes might possibly be passed in F/S to slow the cars down, i.e., outlawing all heads except E7s. Any info will be greatly appreciated.

[gtluke]

outlawing cobra heads?
thats kinda cheezy,
i'd vote for factory stock pistons, rings (sizes) and rods to slow them down.
-luke-

[Timido]

If they make major rules changes I only hope they give the racers the Time to make the changes. I am for no changes. Why slow down a class?

[streetwarrior]

I heard the reasoning for slowing them down would be to prevent having an F/S car to have a cage for the main reason. This may or may not happen anyways, so it is a moot point right now, but I had been wondering if anyone had heard about it.

[gtluke]

most of the top racers have cages
i think 2 of them have 10pts

[streetwarrior]

Exactly, I heard the reasoning to slow them below 12.0s were to not have to have a cage, Factory Stock should be a class where you can run without a cage and still be able to win, I can see both sides.... either let the racers race, and if they want to win they will spend the money, or regulate the class to make it available to almost anyone. Just don't keep changing the rules every year just because racers keep finding ways to go faster within the rules.

[SANDMAN]

If ya take away the gt40 heads thats fine. But what do you do about a 4v cobra? They are to heavy as it now stands and are on the verge of getting into 11's.

[gtluke]

i say leave the 4v alone, and take away some engine internals on 5.0's...
or stock oil pan, stock piston rings...
bring the 5.0's back to 12.00 at least
-luke-

[streetwarrior]

I say leave the frickin class alone personally, the 4V guys will figure it out eventually, and then look out... the only thing I might see as fair might be a small weight break for the 4V cars. Otherwise, you will start pissing off your racers and fan base and start losing competitors.

PS- hey luke, how much you want for the bandit?

[gtluke]

i need 2k for it
its got about 5,000 miles on it and is all original (red)
-luke-

[gtluke]

i'd also like to see a big weight brake for 2v mod cars
there is no serious contender in that department.

[Stephen Johnson]

What about allowing carb. cars in the class.. What is the reasoning behind not having any.. I would like to run this class but i have a carb on it.. What about running a 650 carb and a Edelbrock or Weiand intake..

[gtluke]

just tooooo many rules to allow carbs

i think a tweaked "factory stock" 85 would be damn fast though
-luke-

[Uncle Robin]

Originally posted by streetwarrior
Uncle Robin, or someone in the know,

Yeah I am not "in the know" on this subject. There has been a lot of speculation over the past couple of years (about slowing the cars down) and that seems to increase around rules time.

I was told "no major changes".

However what we see as Major others might not.

Roll bars are good for all cars. Not just 11 second cars. No matter what is done to slow the cars down racers will always find ways to make them faster.

Robin

[ChadB]

I agree with Robin on the Roll bars, which would you be safer in if something caused you to wreck (A) 12.50 car with no cage or (B) 11.80 car with 6 point?
Chad

[SANDMAN]

Thats my point. If you slow up the 5.0 guys what chance would they stand running a cobra?

Originally posted by streetwarrior
I say leave the frickin class alone personally, the 4V guys will figure it out eventually, and then look out... the only thing I might see as fair might be a small weight break for the 4V cars. Otherwise, you will start pissing off your racers and fan base and start losing competitors.

PS- hey luke, how much you want for the bandit?

[streetwarrior]

Originally posted by ChadB
I agree with Robin on the Roll bars, which would you be safer in if something caused you to wreck (A) 12.50 car with no cage or (B) 11.80 car with 6 point?
Chad

Chad, I am not arguing that a cage in any car will not make it safer, I am saying that not everyone can tolerate a 6 or 8-point cage in their car. Tolerating it is not even the whole shebang, I know several "street cars" that run much faster than the 11.99 rulebook that simply don't go to the track or have a cage cause that would give away the intent of the car. Do I think this is safe? Nope. Do I understand why some people do stupid things like drive a no-cage, 10 second car on the street and race it? Sure. The main point I think of the no-cage requirement is to allow any average Joe to bring out his everyday street car and still fit within the rules.

[ChadB]

I know you didn't mean that a cage wouldn't make F/S cars safer. But if such a rule were to come about, do you think all the current F/S racers would cut his/her cage out to be legal or buy another car without a cage and convert all their setup to it? That would just cost more money either way and that's the one thing people want to avoid. Secondly, if there was such a rule along with other rules to try and slow them down, what about those few that would spend even more money to find power and push for the 11's. Then it would become a bracket race to them b/c they would have make sure they don't go under 12.00 and "break out" b/c of no cage. It's not a viable option to me. But is makes for an interesting point to discuss. What ya think?

[Laser96GT]

So all cars can compete in Factory Stock being stock except 1993-1995 Cobras b/c of the cam and 2003 Cobras right?

[Christoph]

I think that the rules really should be left the way they currently stand. I agree with Robin 100% regarding the cage in the car but I also see what others are saying regarding not wanting to give up the "street manners" of what may be their only vehicle.

I spoke with Thom Bates a couple of months ago specifically on this subject as I was purchasing engine components to build my F/S car. He responded, as Robin said, there will be no major changes in the current rules for 2003.

Now regarding the internals of the motors I do believe that there should only be factory style replacements allowed. For example, TRW stock replacement forgings, KB hypers, etc... I am all for allowing stronger rods and cranks as long as long as they have the same weight as the stock components they replace. The stronger components save money for the racer in the long run.

I don't see any need to make aftermarket brakes illegal in this class. Robin has proven one can run fast with the heavier stock components but the fact of the matter is the car stops better with aftermarket brakes. In the grand scheme of things the aftermarket brakes are a bargain. You get a better performing car and a safer car.

The only rule I would REALLY like to see changed is for the NMRA to allow carbs in this class. A "street" oriented dual plane intake of the "non-air gap" variety and a small 600 CFM carb. Not only would this be a nice performing combo with the current rules but it would also be a less expensive route. For example, take someone who has a '93 LX Mustang that wants to compete in F/S. One can put together a decent induction system for ~$300 to $500 with a carb. Compare that to the cost of an electronic tuner for the computer, Cobra intake, larger throttle body, larger injectors, larger mass air meter, regulator, etc...and the cost of the carb is roughly 1/3 to 1/4 that of the EFI system.

[Timido]

Let me guess



You have a 93lx with a carb and stock replacement pistons and you want the rules changed to your combo.

[Agent 91]

My brother and I learned first hand how tough this class is after running the first half of the '01 season in FS. Heads up racing isnt for "the avg. guy" It takes alot if dedication and attention to detail to be competitive, let alone have a chance at winning, no matter what the class is called. If I'm not mistaken Justin and maybe some others have been in the 11s with E7s so its not a big decrease in ETs if they only run them. Build your car to fit the rules, cause they arent going to build the rules to fit your car.

I wanna run Outlaw, they should give me a 6 second handicap since I have E7s!!

[Christoph]

Timido...

Actually no... I don't have a '93 LX with a carb. IF you go back and read my post you will NOTICE I stated that I DON'T have a problem with the rules in their current format.

To paraphrase Agent 91, racing costs money especially in a heads up class. Why not allow a less expensive induction combination?

My first knowledge of the suggestion regarding the use of carbs in F/S was a few months ago. At the time I believed it to be a good suggestion and I still do believe it is a good suggestion.

Do you have any furhter ASSumptions?

[Timido]

Word (Agent91)

Only thing I can add is the average joe can build a F/S car have fun and very competitive. It does take alot of time and testing.
My car.
Money is not what makes my car fast. its How I spent the money.
fresh shortblock
3angle valve job 58cc gt40p heads
cobra intake
motorsport p headers
used x pipe with epoxy and clamps holding it together.
no chip
stock front and rear brakes
Used weld wheels
gave a friend a case of beer to install my $115 roll bar kit.
Several parts loaned or borrowed from other Dedpedals

2000 F/S 7th in points
2001 F/S 9th in points
2002 F/S 3rd in points
R/U Reynolds
R/U Maple grove
R/U WFC

[Timido]

Do you have any furhter ASSumptions?

I like the way you throw that in there nice touch. Did I strike a nerve with the anti-carb comment. :D

[gtluke]

timido ownz j000 all

[Christoph]

Just a little...LOL!!!

For whatever reason you are against the carb idea is fine with me as I am sure there are valid points that can be made for not allowing carbs.

My view point is simply from a cost perspective.

Sorry about the "nice touch". I argue for a living but unfortunately the rules in that arena don't allow me to say what is running through my head at the time so I had to take advantage...

[gtluke]

wait isnt a exploder intake and 65mm throttle body cheaper than a carb and intake AND conversion?

[Christoph]

What is your point Luke??

Are you saying that it is more expensive to run a carb over EFI in a race environment?

Clarification is requested...

[TMC]

Originally posted by gtluke
wait isnt a exploder intake and 65mm throttle body cheaper than a carb and intake AND conversion?

I paid $185 for my Explorer intake and tb. I also paid $180 for a ProM MAF. I'd bet a competitive F/S carb setup would be more than that!

Keep the carbs out IMO.

[Stephen Johnson]

I have to agree , they should allow carb cars in F/S.. i mean what about those carb guys who want to run in F/S.. i mean they are not gonna get rid of the carb to run F/S.. actually run FI in F/S is more expensive than the carbs.. It would bring some variety to the class.. but if they allow the carb cars in F/S they will do like P/S.. put a weight penalty on the carb.. just my .02cents

[Laser96GT]

I could see carbs in F/S with a weight penalty. You can spend more or less on either setup depending on what kind of deals you can find.

[gtluke]

Originally posted by Christoph


My view point is simply from a cost perspective.



umm thats my point
it doest seem to be a cost prespective to me, though i have never owned anything with a carb that wasnt' a sidedraft and had 2 wheels :)
-luke-

[ChadB]

Here's a thought on carbs. Ok, they let them in. Let's say with a 100lb weight penalty. Carb cars seem to be running about the same as EFI cars. Then some guy shows up with a carb from Pro Sytems that he paid $600+ over the price of the carb just to get any extra advantage over the average carb. He smokes everybody. Does it for several races. NMRA slaps extra 100lbs on carb cars. Then the guys who wanted carbs now have an extra 100lbs to make up for and the EFI guys are back ahead. Then what do you do? Just food for thought.

[Christoph]

Luke,

Thanks for the clarification...

Chad,

That is an excellent point you raise. As yourself and others have pointed out, the carb cars would have to have a weight penalty such as those in P/S. How to regulate the proposed carb cars would be a problem and keep guys/gals from bringing in an $800 modified carb...

My only suggestion would be to limit the carb to a specific brand/brands and their respective part#'s and that it must be run in "out of the box" form. Other than the usual jetting of the carb there should be no other mods allowed.

It would be really interesting if we could get Robin, Timido, Justin, Troy, Bob, etc...to put a dual plane intake with a 600 CFM carb on their car just to see how it would run and compare it to their times with the EFI set up.

[Agent 91]

No go on the carbs...

The class is called factory stock, not "factory stock except for air/fuel delivery systems". Enough people complain that its not stock enough with the cobra intakes and heads ect ect... now people want to allow something that is so far from stock it would rule out anyone complaining about the "stockness" of any other parts on the car. If you want a carb, run in Pure Street.

[Christoph]

"If you want a carb, run in Pure Street"... Well crafted, really nice...

I guess those '85 Mustangs, that by the way are legal in this class, didn't come with carbs...

I don't think the name is of any concern regarding the rules. If it were then rules would simply only allow "factory stock" components.

[Agent 91]

OK, go ahead and use your carb from a pre EFI stang and use the stock intake with it, of course with no porting. The EFI guys have to use a stock intake so allowing anyone with a carb to run an aftermarket intake wouldnt be right. And lets keep the carb intake from the same decade that the car was produced.

Your right, whats in a name??? Factory stock doesnt neccessarily mean 100%stock, but it does infer something about the characteristics of the vehicles in the class.

[Christoph]

Agent 91,

Now that was a well thought out response... I do understand what you are saying regarding the factory pieces and I agree... It would not be fair to allow aftermarket carb intakes and restrict the EFI folks to the OEM, Cobra and Explorer included, style intakes. To be honest, I had not thought about it from that angle...

I do, however, believe that they should allow the carb cars to run in F/S but, as you suggested, restrict them to the factory OEM '85 manifold. My only alteration would be to allow it to cover all years and allow an aftermarket carb, after all the EFI cars are allowed a larger throttle body... For example, allow the OEM '85 manifold on up to the '95 model year and a 600 CFM carb...

What do you all think???

[Timido]

My opinion build your car within the rules.
Don't try to have the rules changed to work for your likes or dislikes. Build your car and come out and play..........with EFI.....



I wanna run Outlaw, they should give me a 6 second handicap since I have E7s!! :D

[Ed Curtis]

Here we go again Christopher.....

Why don't you just put your money where your mouth is and BUILD a F/S car! That way you can use all those "cheapo" parts you love so much and be a first round runner up....

There are rules already in existance for competitive F/S cars. Apply them, interpret them and for crying out loud, follow them when you finally build this "earth shattering" concept car of yours.

My God, if your car was as fast as your rhetoric, you'll run tens!!!

"My opinion build your car within the rules.
Don't try to have the rules changed to work for your likes or dislikes. Build your car and come out and play..........with EFI....."

Go Timaaaaaayyyyyyyyyy......

ED

[RI85GT]

Carbs suck :p

[gtluke]

Ed 0\/\/3d j0000

[literboy]

In 2000 I proposed Ed and the rest the NMRA about this very issue. A couple points were brought up to me:

1. stock '83-'85 HO 4V intakes... have you looked at the port size?

2. the required carb would be what? the stock 4180? hmm... side hung floats, single fuel inlet, and crappy secondary fuel metering etc... just not gonna work!


I have had great experience with the above combo on several '85's and even with the famous B302, B303 and E303 cams, the best et was 12.49@110 with slicks!!

At one time this combo would have been competetive but now it would be the laughing stock. I'm embarrased that I ever mentioned it in 2000.

See ya later... Dan@March

[Christoph]

You know...

Why are these boards even here? It seems that no one can have a mature exchange of ideas. Don't follow along like sheep and you will have some half wit doing their best to belittle you running back to the group saying "look what I said, look what I said"...

And Ed, you are not going to start with your moronic comparisons of limited hemi cranks, Cobra Jet heads and E7's are you?

I couldn't agree more, the rules exist for a reason. The car should be built within the rules. So much for a board that the folks can have a mature exchange of ideas regarding the rules, set ups, etc... All of these message boards should restrict threads to massaging the egos of people like Ed with the little soldiers out in force, doing their best with the English language, to detect all non-followers.

Dan, Tim and Agent 91... Thank you for your suggestions on why the carbs should not be legal and the problems that would exist if there were made legal.

[Ed Curtis]

Originally posted by Christoph
You know...

Why are these boards even here? It seems that no one can have a mature exchange of ideas. Don't follow along like sheep and you will have some half wit doing their best to belittle you running back to the group saying "look what I said, look what I said"...
These boards are here for everyone, even derrogatory cyber-racers like you but mostly it's here for the racers. We (racers that is) exchange ideas, thoughts and even some racing stories. However, when someone like you comes around spewing all kinds of lame ideas and changes to a very well engineered class, be prepared for a heated discussion from those of us that have lived and breathed these classes.

And Ed, you are not going to start with your moronic comparisons of limited hemi cranks, Cobra Jet heads and E7's are you?

The only moronic comments are from your cyber-racing keyboard Christopher.

No I won't explain these comparisons again because you have no real knowledge or even a minute concept of what the analogy meant, so why should ANYONE waste the time trying to expain true racing costs to a non-racer like yourself?

I couldn't agree more, the rules exist for a reason. The car should be built within the rules.

Then for crying out load, BUILD A FRIGGIN' CAR and shut off your computer!

So much for a board that the folks can have a mature exchange of ideas regarding the rules, set ups, etc... All of these message boards should restrict threads to massaging the egos of people like Ed with the little soldiers out in force, doing their best with the English language, to detect all non-followers.

Boy you really prove your ignorance here. Trying your best to insult me as well as the rest of the NMRA racers who sweat bullets getting their cars ready for racing. I just can't wait to see the F/S racers' faces when you show up at a race. Oh that's right, there's no "Heads Up Keyboard" class.

Massaging my ego? Boy you're a real gem buddy.... :rolleyes:

Cyber-racer, you have no real perception or legitimate basis for your stupid uneducated comments about me or anyone else on this site involved with the NMRA so go find "Rice.com" please...

If you knew the history of the NMRA and my time with the organization, you sure as hell would know there are far and few here that would say "Follow Ed". I've had my share of "conversations" with the racers during my time in NMRA Tech department and even beat a few of them on the track when I was racing in 2001. I really don't think I have that big of a fan club.... :D

BTW, where were you the last four seasons cyber-racer????

Bottom line is there are a lot of good, well thought of responses and ideas popping up all through this site. Most are realistic for the improvement of the class(es). Your ideas for Factory Stock however, are not based on experience or any knowledge of the class, just some hypothetical BS from another uninformed interent racer. Try a rice site next time!

Again I'll repeat this almighty cyber-racer, build a car, race with the Dedpedal gang and see what it's really like to be there in the thick of things!!!

Dan, Tim and Agent 91... Thank you for your suggestions on why the carbs should not be legal and the problems that would exist if there were made legal.

If you were around in 2000, this would never have even been brought up. This is old the "Dan Garn" rule but seeing that you have not ever raced in the NMRA, and only have visions of what you could or would do if you did, you didn't know this....

Please, do us all a favor and go race a Honda or Toyota, will ya....

Ed

[Uncle Robin]

OK guys I think that this has gone down the tubes.

The points have been made and now it's getting personal.

Keep it on a positive level please.

The rules will be out in a matter of days/weeks. Lets cool down and see what they look like.

This thread is locked.