Preliminary Rules PS

[ET/MPH]

Why is it that the Trick Flow Heads are the only ones that are being penalized with +50lbs? This is a load of B.S!

[Freddie]

I agree on the question on the heads???

also what is up with the wieght breaks??? a 5.0 with a set of trick flows and a carb has to wiegh in at 3225, on a 10" tire... the big advantage seems to be in the Mod Motors..

If I wanted to run a mod motor I would have built my car for that class... instead I spent the last year working on my setup for Pure Street, and throw an extra 100# on my setup.. I was just getting close to being able to run with the middle of the pack..

[Brandon Alsept]

Care to elaborate on how a Mod motor has a advantage?

[teddy]

Why is it that the Trick Flow Heads are the only ones that are being penalized with +50lbs? This is a load of B.S!
That's the biggest P.O.S rule I've seen in years!!! The carb penalty I could care less about cause I will run which ever system is faster, but the T/W penalty-----get a F'ing grip!!

[Freddie]

Care to elaborate on how a Mod motor has a advantage?

just look at the wieght differance... I know it takes more to build a good mod motor.. but lets face it 200# or more is still a advantage... let alone the tight restrictions the 302 has on cam/heads/intake systems...

I dont care what you build for a motor.. if your making 450hp in either a 302 or a mod motor... under the wieghts the way they are.. the mod motor will be faster simply becuase the car is lighter...

[rmracing]

B.S. Thats right ! The fastest pass ever by an efi car and the record for all of the 05 season was by a BRODIX headed car . That car spanked all the twisted wedge efi cars so bad that it had the championship wraped up about
halfway through the season . 1 year later there still havent been any faster efi passes by a twisted wedge headed car.

Rocky

[teddy]

Boys get your rules e-mails sent in promptly. P/S has been a class that the rules makers haven't screwed with for years, until now:mad: :mad:

[Brandon Alsept]

just look at the wieght differance... I know it takes more to build a good mod motor.. but lets face it 200# or more is still a advantage... let alone the tight restrictions the 302 has on cam/heads/intake systems...

I dont care what you build for a motor.. if your making 450hp in either a 302 or a mod motor... under the wieghts the way they are.. the mod motor will be faster simply becuase the car is lighter...


Well then run EFI and heads besides TW heads and you will only be 100lbs;)

Remember NMRA is not holding a gun to your heads on what combo you have to run;)

[teddy]

Remember NMRA is not holding a gun to your heads on what combo you have to run;)
Just a brick of weight over your head;)

[Brandon Alsept]

Just a brick of weight over your head;)

Well I didn't say they where holding any weapon against you, just not a gun:D

[sam sso2077]

That's the biggest P.O.S rule I've seen in years!!! The carb penalty I could care less about cause I will run which ever system is faster, but the T/W penalty-----get a F'ing grip!!

What's a matter Teddy, rules not suit you? :p

[vrtical]

looks like Teddy should buy a modular kmember for the new car :D I am actually surprised they listened to the weight penalties for certain heads.

[teddy]

What's a matter Teddy, rules not suit you? :p
Both changes affected me. One I agree with and expected, the other was lobby'd for by someone who doesn't run in the class and affects 98% of the class. I'm sure I'm wrong but the only one I know of off hand is Jimmy that runs a different head than the T/W.
Don't you have some SSO rules to complain about:p :D

[teddy]

looks like Teddy should buy a modular kmember for the new car :D I am actually surprised they listened to the weight penalties for certain heads.
I think alot of it is who does/did the lobbying:rolleyes:

[Perky]

Both changes affected me. One I agree with and expected, the other was lobby'd for by someone who doesn't run in the class and affects 98% of the class. I'm sure I'm wrong but the only one I know of off hand is Jimmy that runs a different head than the T/W.
Don't you have some SSO rules to complain about:p :D

Jimmy
Larry
Maybe Amy?
Modular guys

[teddy]

Jimmy
Larry
Maybe Amy?
Modular guys
Amy now has T/W. I don't know Larry therefore I know nothing of his combo. Ram racing looks better and better.

[Perky]

Amy now has T/W. I don't know Larry therefore I know nothing of his combo. Ram racing looks better and better.

I thought she changed but wasn't 100%

Yeah Ram is pretty cool deal.. Nothing like All motor on radials running LOW 9's!!!

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/e6be5b2e-174e-4d94-8a6e-988e00fd46ee.htm

Right now EFI has to weigh more...

[teddy]

I thought she changed but wasn't 100%

Yeah Ram is pretty cool deal.. Nothing like All motor on radials running LOW 9's!!!

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/e6be5b2e-174e-4d94-8a6e-988e00fd46ee.htm

Right now EFI has to weigh more...
Awesome pass Perky;) I see you had to but the bars on. That damn car has always been on the bumper:D

[Brandon Alsept]

Jimmy
Larry
Maybe Amy?
Modular guys


Well I can say I had 0 to do with weight for a certain head.

[Perky]

Awesome pass Perky;) I see you had to but the bars on. That damn car has always been on the bumper:D

Yeah that was the first pass with them.. That was the last time out for this year... it rode several 100 ft wheelies on radials this year.!!!! with the radial tire you need to be up on it for sure....

[rmracing]

Teddy lets say this was proposed by someone who dosent even run in the class anymore. If I sold my combo and guit for a while and wanted to come back and i thought my brand heads or whatever wernt good enough I had to start all over I would buy the brand i thought was better . Say this person was to come back , It sounds like they would want to run the other brand head if they are trying to get a weight break on that head . Sounds a little shaddy to me . B_ _ch about your combo isnt competive , get a weight break , then come out and kick everyone butts . Why not try , its worked in other classes.


Rocky

[RHecox]

Gene held the record and won the championship without using twist wedge heads.

I agree the heads are more appealing and make more power, but how much? enough to warrant a 50# penalty? I dont think so. When are they going to penalize you for running a certain intake or even headers. How about a penalty for who assembled or built your engine. One person is obviously better than the other so why not list who builds your engine and slap a penalty on them for that too. How about my Bogart rims and your Weld magnums? The welds are 4 pounds lighter... can they get a 20 pound penalty because I cant afford them?

[ISSUES]

i always wanted to have to weigh 3225#'s :(

anyone looking for a set of TW heads :D j/k

i really hope this rule doesnt stick.

now im afraid to look at the F/S rules.....

[rmracing]

Iwould like to see a weight penalty for coupes and lxs due to they have an advantage over the gts . It is defanately an advantage having that much weight to move around . How crazy can we get here. I know of a car that runs alot more air pressure than the rest due to having a ton of weight in the rear that a gt could never get . If you can hook up and still run extra air it is less drag and better et. We have added 5 pounds of air in the slicks on the dyno and got 10 more hp to the tires .



Rocky

[RHecox]

Iwould like to see a weight penalty for coupes and lxs due to they have an advantage over the gts . It is defanately an advantage having that much weight to move around . How crazy can we get here. I know of a car that runs alot more air pressure than the rest due to having a ton of weight in the rear that a gt could never get . If you can hook up and still run extra air it is less drag and better et. We have added 5 pounds of air in the slicks on the dyno and got 10 more hp to the tires .



Rocky



If they want a penalty on the TW heads then why not follow what they proposed in Real Street and drop the base weight 50 and then let the penalties follow from there.

That is going to be my suggestion. Keep the 50 pound penalty, even though I dont fully agree with it but drop the base weight 50#.

What heads was Ron Anderson using? TFS?

[clmrhayden]

Didn't Mike Tymensky run a 10.41 in BG and how fast could that have been #100 lighter? I think it is time to change to a mod motor.

[John Mize]

Sorry guys and gals. I didn't make the TFS head weight suggestion but I am one of the few that will benefit from the penalty because I am running something else so I can't say I disagree with the penalty.

I think the carb penalty was pretty much on the money and this was my quote from November 75lb would be appropriate, plus I think the limit on weight of a car in this class should never have to exceed 3200lb. It just doesn't make sense to have to weight more than that. If 75lb isn't enough then drop some weight off the AOD/EFI combo.

I do agree that the mod motor stuff shouldn't have opened up the door that much. And I definitely agree that our base weight should be dropped for safety reasons.

Either way, much like many of you, I want to know what the final decision is so I can get busy on my stuff. Please consider what will make the class as level a playing field as possible and have fun if you go to PRI. I won't be there but maybe several of you could talk to Tom about your suggestions and finalizing things soon.

[GeneHindman]

I haven't read the rules yet, but I did put in a rules proposal for what I believe is fair if I am racing with Brodix or Edelbrock heads against the T/W. By reading what you are posting, I see that they may have added 50# to the T/W head (which I think is not enough) and I maybe they added 50# more to the carb for a total of 75# penalty (which I think maybe a "tad" too much). Either way, I also asked for the base weight to be 3000# and that way if the guys who got a weight penalty (Carb and T/W) that they would only have to add a few pounds to the car. And for those that didn't have weight penalties, it would be up to them to pull the weight and take advantage the reduction of weight. I am for this rule because I think it is fair, and I will give examples for anyone who wants to talk about it. As a matter of fact, I did this just a few months ago with Teddy on here somewhere. And yes, I did win the Championship and locked it up early in the year, but it had nothing to do with how much work I did right? Or how bad the others were doing the whole season...right? I went a 10.31 in BG and the scales were 40# lighter there.... I went 10.43 in MG with 3500 feet of air. Anderson went 10.29 with 4000 feet of there this year.
What about Brad Meadows, he ran Edlebrocks for years and went 10.50's, just a tenth behind me most of the time. He suddenly switched to T/W and now he's kicking alot of butt and going 10.20's alot. What about Amy Sherwin, she had a set of my Brodix heads (which I know were good) and she never made a 10 second pass... but yet she got a set of T/W and has been in the 10.80's now. Rich Groh said he tried every head out thereand the Brodix looked good on the benches, but would NOT run on the track compared to the T/W. The facts are out there, you just can't have your blinders on.
Ryan's idea for having certain people doing your stuff and having different penalties is funny, but he has a point behind it. You guys with the same combination as Anderson are still getting beat by 1.5 tenths. What does it matter to you if you still have to weigh the same the fastest... The only ones getting a break are the ones not "in the hunt".
The only thing I disagree with at this time is the base weights. I think they all should be at 3000# and penalties added from there. I think the modulars and a EFI pushrod with NON-T/W heads should be at equal weights.
Now, just so you know... I aint coming back yet. I only put a rules proposal in to try and make the racing fair and closer. (just like they did after KC in 2005). I gave my honest opinion with very good data. If I came back this coming year, I would still buy me a new set of T/W heads and go racing if I were to use a pushrod, but I wouldn't. I would have a modular in a foxbody@ 3000#, and then the following year it would have to weigh more like the carb combo.
Anyone want to sponsor a modular engine for me to work with and get some good coverage and data with? I have the car. Tymenski...Pappito? You guys have something laying around?
One more thing.. Does it matter that "I don't race this class" since thats what a couple of you have said? I have been here longer than any of you, and could be back at the drop of a hat. But I guess since I took a year off, do a family thing, you guys want to throw stones. Well, just remember... You guys still aint as fast as someone else with the same combination you are running, So what does that say about your program? Atleast I was the fastest with what I was using.

[teddy]

WOW, where to begin. Nobody's throwing stones at you for taling time of to be with your family, matter of fact thats a very noble thing. All of this data that you have, I'm sure you have as far as different intakes(I know you tested more than the Holley, and cam manufactures, etc. I bet some were better than others. Please post here your results so we can propose weight changes for those as well-its only fair, and will save people money, right. Brad did more than bolt on heads, I believe the motor he was running was 2 years old without a freshen among many things. I bet if you were to ask Amy, she did more than bolt on a new set of heads, wasn't it a complete new engine??? Yes you went 10.31 with Brodix, you also as many others do pick up every year. Is it still true that when you drove the gold car mid season it went faster in the 1/8th than you've ever been?? So maybe you would have went .20's as well. Gene I have alot of respect for you in that you are a very accomplished racer and are very fast with your program. YOU WOULD HAVE WENT .20's. If the rules stay the way they are it is a golden opportunity for you to once again dominate with your proven program. And wanting to down other programs, I'll give you one piece of info as far as my combo being .15 behind Ron. In BG I went a 10.35 with a 1.45 60 ft. I'm doing what I can in building a new car to cure the issues. What do you think the car might have went with one of those 1.38 60fts?? My engine program isn't too far off, its my chassis. Oh ya see ya in Bradenton ;) ;) :D :D

[rmracing]

Gene , I guess the mod guys should be thanking you . If you think about it you just slowed down every pushrod car but 1 . There are 4 pushrods that i know of not running tw heads and 3 of the 4 are carbs . So basically all the pushrod guys and gal will have to add weight but 1 . Why not just ask for a weight break for the non twisted wedge head pushrod cars for 50 pounds instead of adding weight to all the pushrod cars. That would make more since wouldnt it .



Rocky

[Shawn Johnson]

Didn't Mike Tymensky run a 10.41 in BG and how fast could that have been #100 lighter? I think it is time to change to a mod motor.


I have a good 4v motor for anyone looking to switch...

[ET/MPH]

Can anyone explain why the TW heads are more superior to any of the other cylinder heads on the list????
Give some justification on the weight penalty.

[teddy]

Why not just ask for a weight break for the non twisted wedge head pushrod cars for 50 pounds instead of adding weight to all the pushrod cars. That would make more since wouldnt it .



Rocky
I see your point Rocky, but I still think we should weigh the same, whatever head you run.

[clmrhayden]

Didn't Mike Tymensky run a 10.41 in BG and how fast could that have been #100 lighter? I think it is time to change to a mod motor.


Never mind I was looking at the 3V at 2900#

[rmracing]

Teddy, I totally agree . I think they should weigh the same also . I am going to send a letter to the rules commitee that the weights be the same on all heads . The facts are simple . The fastest efi pass to date in nmra was Gene with his brodix heads . There have been many efi guys with twisted wedge heads that could not touch Gene . Gene is a good racer but that does not mean that no one else has tried hard enough or tried enough things. Many would be suprised how much money and things that I have tried , among others. Thousands and thousands of dollars before ever seeing any gain . Same as you Teddy , I mean come on spending money on a whole new car just because you think you could make it better.Some dont understand that there are other people who will spend every last dollar to try anything and everything they think will make them faster. I do think that if , if they insist on giving a break that they just take weight off the non twisted wedge pushrod cars just like they do for auto cars , they are -50 pounds.If we have to give up something that would be better that adding the weight to us and making us weigh 150 over the mods also.


Rocky

[rmracing]

Can anyone explain why the TW heads are more superior to any of the other cylinder heads on the list????
Give some justification on the weight penalty.


Because Gene said so. I am just wandering if the twisted wedge is so much better than the brodix then why wasnt this proposed last year when Gene and the brodix heads were untouchable. Then when Ron came out at the end of the year last year and won Gene was complaning about the carb being the advantage. Now it has turned into a head issue and not the carb. Sorry Gene I do think you are a great racer but i have to disagree on this one . This dosent make since. You have also posted in the past about how much better the brodix are than the afr heads , did you recomend that they get even more of a break than tfs and brodix.


Rocky

[John Mize]

You have also posted in the past about how much better the brodix are than the afr heads , did you recomend that they get even more of a break than tfs and brodix.Rocky

I'll take another 25lbs deduction with my AFRs... ;) just kidding..!

[Freddie]

Adding more wieght to my combination is just insane.. I have spent alot of time and $$$ this year to build and test a car to run in 07.. I am still a bit off pace with everyone else we could only run 10.9's with our T/W heads..

to thro more wieght on this would be putting me into the 11's.. not going to happen... I will throw a Powerglide in the car and bracket race it ....


HMMMM...

Anyone interested in a Tremec 3550 that has been rebuilt to TKO 600 Specs, Pro Shifted, with a Pro 5.0 shifter, Bellhousing and H.D Cable?

[34787lx]

I agree the heads are more appealing and make more power, but how much? enough to warrant a 50# penalty? I dont think so. When are they going to penalize you for running a certain intake or even headers. How about a penalty for who assembled or built your engine. One person is obviously better than the other so why not list who builds your engine and slap a penalty on them for that too. How about my Bogart rims and your Weld magnums? The welds are 4 pounds lighter... can they get a 20 pound penalty because I cant afford them?


I agree 100% with this post. I'm not a P/S racer just a fan of the class so take it for what it is worth.

[rmracing]

Gene , You posted about Brad going from 10.50 to 10.20 with twisted wedge , He actually was going 10.40s with the edelbrocks and it was you who said that you could take Brads car the way it sat with the edelbrocks and make it run 10.20s . Did you not offer Brad to take his car home with you and you would only change a couple of small things and give it back to him running 10.20s . Maybe he figured out something else , just like you already knew , right , not tw.

Amy sold her brodix to Darrin C and he went faster this year than he ever had , I believe he said he got down to a 10.60 after the season was over.Way faster than he was last year in 05.

Amy i believe was running twisted wedge all year Gene and not going fast .She had a new complete engine in the works and was put in at the end of the year and went faster . The twisted wedge heads wernt the reason. Maybe Amy could tell you all of here problems over the year and about the borrowed engine that she was using just to run while she was waiting on a engine with all the goodies to be built .



Rocky

[ISSUES]

would someone in tech please justify the weight on the head?

couldve just made it 100#'s for a carb and just left it at that.

[GeneHindman]

WOW, where to begin. Nobody's throwing stones at you for taking time of to be with your family, matter of fact thats a very noble thing. but someone by the name of "teddy and rmracing" made a snide comment about the rules being changed for someone who doesn't even race the class. in my opinion, that was a stab.
All of this data that you have, I'm sure you have as far as different intakes(I know you tested more than the Holley, and cam manufactures, etc. I bet some were better than others. Please post here your results so we can propose weight changes for those as well-its only fair, and will save people money, right. I didn't post the data from the heads here either, but you do have 1 valid point. The intakes "COULD" have a weight break/penalty. The cams cannot. Reason is, we are not limited to manufacturers on the cams, but we are on the heads and intakes. Brad did more than bolt on heads, I believe the motor he was running was 2 years old without a freshen among many things. I bet if you were to ask Amy, she did more than bolt on a new set of heads, wasn't it a complete new engine??? Brad and Amy both had fresh engine with their old heads at one time also, both were slower. Ask them if they'd switch back. Even with the penalty now. And wanting to down other programs, I'll give you one piece of info as far as my combo being .15 behind Ron. In BG I went a 10.35 with a 1.45 60 ft. I'm doing what I can in building a new car to cure the issues. What do you think the car might have went with one of those 1.38 60fts?? My engine program isn't too far off, its my chassis. Oh ya see ya in Bradenton ;) ;) :D :D
I'm not downing your program, it's the facts. My mind must be slipping though, I could have sworn your 60's were better than that in BG. In Atco, you had a 1,45 and went a 10.43 I think. Sorry, I wasn;t there though but it's still irrelevant. If it's so easy... I'd be willing to bet you a grand that you could put a set of Brodix on and go a tenth or more slower! Just think, you could get alot that head paid for if you think your right.
The facts are simple . The fastest efi pass to date in nmra was Gene with his brodix heads . There have been many efi guys with twisted wedge heads that could not touch Gene. Ya, but how many of those same people can't touch Ron and Brad either? Gene is a good racer but that does not mean that no one else has tried hard enough or tried enough things. I thought the same thing last year when they decided to pull that weight off the carb cars, just so they could make the field level. I didn't think that was quite fair either, but it worked. I do think that if , if they insist on giving a break that they just take weight off the non twisted wedge pushrod cars just like they do for auto cars , they are -50 pounds.If we have to give up something that would be better that adding the weight to us and making us weigh 150 over the mods also. I tried to get the base down to 3000# and I think that the EFI cars without T/W should be at equal weights of the modulars. then that would put the Carb cars with T/W at the same weight as they were last season. Each and every one of you P/S racers (since I'm not:D ) should send a rules proposal for 3000#base.
Besides, this is not the only class effected. I have heard... but not read... that the R/S has this new rule and so does Mean Street in NMCA. So, maybe this rule should have been effect a long time ago. Lot's of other classes have penalties for certain heads, this one is no different now. If I were you guys and gals, I would try and get the base down now, I would figure that the weights will stick for a while.
None of you have a clue as to how much time and effort I put into the Brodix program to make them what they were in my program, and I still know the T/W is a superior head. Just do your own research and see why. Or better yet, I'll give some light... 15* intake valve and 17* exhaust valve. We can't even mill our heads that far to make that 17* angle, much less the 15*. What about the fact that it has a .400" shorter intake runner with a very nice cross section? You know what that'll do with velocity? what the 1/2 shorter Intake valve? You think the weight of the valve will matter any?
I still bet that none of you are willing to switch back to a Non T/W head and I still bet that anyone starting from scratch will take the 50# hit and still use the T/W.
Boys get your rules e-mails sent in promptly. P/S has been a class that the rules makers haven't screwed with for years, until now Rules haven't been messed with now either, just adjusted weights. Cost less than $200 for this change including new rear springs. Heck, your car didn't work anyway to hear you tell it, this should help it now.
That's the biggest P.O.S rule I've seen in years!!! The carb penalty I could care less about cause I will run which ever system is faster, but the T/W penalty-----get a F'ing grip!! What does it matter, if it effects everyone, then everyone will slow down the same right? Maybe the "grip" could come from you and think reasonably on this.... If you could care less about the carb rule and you will use which ever is quicker, then just do the same for the head rule. I bet you still use the T/W.
Relax guys, just get the base dropped down to 3000# like I proposed and the you will not have to change anything unless you want to take advantage to the weight reduction. Send it in and quit talking about it.
would someone in tech please justify the weight on the head?

couldve just made it 100#'s for a carb and just left it at that.
The facts speak for themselves on the heads. It's all over the net, plenty of data everywhere. The carb doesn't need 100# anymore I don't think, unless their filling their bowls with good stuff before the lanes. Then they need more than that.

[BigEd]

Alright a newbee question with TW heads on his combo.
WTF is #50 worth or not worth at the track ???
Please let me in on the secret. Because @ MG with me in the car and 1/2 tank of fuel, I was over 3200 and I am a big guy.
Damn for me the best pass to date was 3 weeks ago at Cecil @ 11.13. I think I have made 20 - 24 passes with the car the whole time I have had it. I would love to spend more time praticing, learning and trying new parts. But I am simply going to say my family comes before anything. No excuses, take it for what its worth.

[Damn Yankee]

Seeing as how Pure Street is supposed to resemble street cars with your typical bolt on's like k-members, a-arms, aluminum heads and intakes, electric fans, water pumps ect, yet the base weights dont come anywhere near the weight of a typical mustang. My 1991 mustang weighed in at 2840lbs with factory steel heads and a stock front end, so where do they come up with these freekin base weights. #3225lbs for a 5.0 with T/W heads and a carb, WTF !!!

[Freddie]

I dont know where the min. weight comes from.. my 90 in full NHRA SS/GT trim wieghs in at a stagering 2875#.. and I can best a 11.25.. this is with stock front x-member, and steel heads.. but I am allowed any intake, and cam...( I run a parker with a .670 Mech. Roller)...I tested this setup with the T/W heads and a Edelbrock Performer RPM... we went a best of 10.85.. to run in Pure Street Trim I would also have to change the cam.. which should slow me back down to 11.0's...

NOT COMPETITIVE.... against a Lighter Mod Motor car running 10.40's...

[LSX-GTO]

Twisted Wedge:
15* Intake valve angle
17* Exhaust valve angle
Rotated intake and exhaust valve centers
Shorter port lengths
Custom castings available.

Edelbrock-AFR-World-Dart-Ford Motorsport
Stock 20* valve angle
Stock OEM valve location
Stock valve spacing
Stock port locations

Brodix
Stock 20* valve angles
Intake valve centers moved .119"
Exhaust valve centers moved .053"
Exhaust port raised .400"

Four Valve Modulars:
OMG... Just park your push rod car! :eek:

:D

[GeneHindman]

Twisted Wedge:
15* Intake valve angle
17* Exhaust valve angle
Rotated intake and exhaust valve centers
Shorter port lengths
Custom castings available.

Edelbrock-AFR-World-Dart-Ford Motorsport
Stock 20* valve angle
Stock OEM valve location
Stock valve spacing
Stock port locations

Brodix
Stock 20* valve angles
Intake valve centers moved .119"
Exhaust valve centers moved .053"
Exhaust port raised .400"

Four Valve Modulars:
OMG... Just park your push rod car! :eek:

:D
I haven't measured the valve spacing on any of the other heads, but I hear that all of the heads have the valve spacing a little wider than FORD did. Mainly to get the bigger valves into the head without touching one another.
I believe you're right about the modular being the ticket also, especially in a good Fox chassis @3000#.

[rmracing]

While were looking at all the specs on which head looks better on paper , can anyone tell us how each head does with wet flow , the twisted wedge suck. How quick does each head go turbulent , the twisted wedge goes turbulent pretty guick. There are also differences in combustion chamber design and different swirl or tumble characteristics between heads that also can make a difference . What looks good on paper does not always work better , if it did we would all just let the desktop dyno build our engines .


Gene i wont go into to many details on the internet on mine and your old combo but lets be serious . Compare apples to apples , as close as we can get , not carb twisted wedge cars to efi brodix cars. Our combos both have very similar things , same intakes , headers, trans , clutch, mass air , injectors , etc.We even run the same pistons and rings. the main difference is the heads , sure we can have different cams but other than that they are pretty close combos . They both make within a couple hp of each other . One twisted wedge , one brodix . Yours has still been the fastest efi EVER . I dont know of 2 closer combos to compare.



Rocky

[teddy]

While were looking at all the specs on which head looks better on paper , can anyone tell us how each head does with wet flow , the twisted wedge suck. How quick does each head go turbulent , the twisted wedge goes turbulent pretty guick. There are also differences in combustion chamber design and different swirl or tumble characteristics between heads that also can make a difference .





Rocky
Very good points. I do know those anwsers as far as a T/W is concerned and they do suck. They do go turbulent rather quickly. Why don't we invite Ben Mens and maybe Danno in on this and give some insight, or any of the "PROFESSIONAL" enginebuilders/ head guru's.

[GeneHindman]

While were looking at all the specs on which head looks better on paper , can anyone tell us how each head does with wet flow , the twisted wedge suck. How quick does each head go turbulent , the twisted wedge goes turbulent pretty guick. There are also differences in combustion chamber design and different swirl or tumble characteristics between heads that also can make a difference . What looks good on paper does not always work better , if it did we would all just let the desktop dyno build our engines . They have turbulence due to the way their ported. It doesn't matter anyway, our cams are .500". And just so you know... my heads had a little turbulence @ .525" We stopped @ .550" for this reason. Now how about velocity? Ask Rich Groh which head works best and how many looked good on the bench.


Gene i wont go into to many details on the internet on mine and your old combo but lets be serious . Compare apples to apples , as close as we can get , not carb twisted wedge cars to efi brodix cars. Our combos both have very similar things , same intakes , headers, trans , clutch, mass air , injectors , etc.We even run the same pistons and rings. the main difference is the heads , sure we can have different cams but other than that they are pretty close combos . They both make within a couple hp of each other . One twisted wedge , one brodix . Yours has still been the fastest efi EVER . I dont know of 2 closer combos to compare. We had nothing the same as far as I know.We ran parts from the same manufacturer, but porting changes that. I highly doubt you used the same pistons and rings I had also. I know we had different shortblocks, which isn't good for much, but it worth a little. And just so you know. You made about 15 more HP than I did. Care to tell me where it was? Maybe.... Car? Maybe.... Driver? Maybe.... experiance? Just asking since you keep asking?

Very good points. I do know those anwsers as far as a T/W is concerned and they do suck. They do go turbulent rather quickly. Why don't we invite Ben Mens and maybe Danno in on this and give some insight, or any of the "PROFESSIONAL" enginebuilders/ head guru's. Professional... meaning: Does for a living... Right? I have my doubts about how much these guys know about any of the other heads other than the T/W. If they do this for a living, then their working on bigger and better projects than a P/S head. It takes so much time and effort in these little engines, most head and engine guys wont put the effort in for the return. They get started and then quit, saying " these aint good enough" and so on. All these heads are street heads and they all are designed for our specific needs. If they don't have turbulence after .500" then their not right for P/S. So.. How good are those points?
Like I said earlier, obviously it was good points on my proposal.... it effect 2 more classes.. 1 not even in NMRA. Just like Ed posted above... I put those same facts in my proposal. Read into a little and you'll see the huge difference.

[rmracing]

Gene , You should know what has been changed on your old car . And yes it does have the same rings and pistons as mine . Yes the valve relieves are different but still . What block were you running because i have a dart and i could have sworn thats what you had also. Gene me and Jimmy talk alot if you dont know and share alot of info .We are currently within a couple hp .The car has had changes since you owned it and you know that. LIke i said they arnt 100% the same but pretty similar. Also speaking of different organizations wasnt fun ford street warrior about to outlaw brodix heads due to their raised exhuast port location a couple years ago and there guys were fighting because they wanted to run the brodix heads.

Rocky

[Amy Sherwin]

Boys get your rules e-mails sent in promptly. P/S has been a class that the rules makers haven't screwed with for years, until now:mad: :mad:


And girls ;)

[Amy Sherwin]

I went 11.0's pretty much the whole year not including the first 2 races when there was tranny issues. I dont know if the tf's made the combo faster, I never had the chance to make a full pass with the 05 engine with the tf's in PA. Running the 10.86 in Bowling Green cant be compared to neither the combo that I ran (stock block/crank) The pass in BG was with the new engine & was last minute, 1st round elims was the 1st pass on car since I wrecked in Ohio. I have taken the car out testing & went faster. There were alot of chassis issues both before ohio & after ohio. I Still couldnt get a decent 60' but I did run faster then BG.

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g19/GTGirl1974/cord1fixed.jpg

Testing after BG

[Freddie]

I went 11.0's pretty much the whole year


And how competetive were you?.. If I am going to spend all the time and $$$ to run the class I want to do more than Qualify... If I dont have enough to go a round or two (without praying for the other guy to go red).. then I wont go..

11.0's are not competitive in this class.... to run I feel our car needs to be going at least 10.60's consistantly.. 50's would be better...

[Amy Sherwin]

And how competetive were you?.. If I am going to spend all the time and $$$ to run the class I want to do more than Qualify... If I dont have enough to go a round or two (without praying for the other guy to go red).. then I wont go..

11.0's are not competitive in this class.... to run I feel our car needs to be going at least 10.60's consistantly.. 50's would be better...

I know 11's are not competitive in this class, but we ran the season with what we had to run with, and it was a tough year. 2 races tranny issues and then the Ohio race when I hit the wall after the crank went in the 1/8. Will the combo be competitive in 07? Yes I feel it will be leaning towards faster. The car did run in the 60s during testing & thats with 1 change and being 60 lbs over in weight.

[GeneHindman]

Also speaking of different organizations wasnt fun ford street warrior about to outlaw brodix heads due to their raised exhuast port location a couple years ago and there guys were fighting because they wanted to run the brodix heads.

Rocky
You bring a very good point.... just not for your benefit:D . You're right, FFW was going to Outlaw the Brodix head because they have a raised exhaust port. I was one of the persons asking to allow them and so was John Scaro. I raced very little so it didn't matter, but Scaro never went quicker than 10.30's with 2 years on the Brodix. He switched to the T/W and went 9's with them at the first race after switching. Good Point! And by the way, Jimmy's car is just a tad slower than yours, why are you comparing what he has/is doing? It's not helping you any.
I know 11's are not competitive in this class, but we ran the season with what we had to run with, and it was a tough year. 2 races tranny issues and then the Ohio race when I hit the wall after the crank went in the 1/8. Will the combo be competitive in 07? Yes I feel it will be leaning towards faster. The car did run in the 60s during testing & thats with 1 change and being 60 lbs over in weight.
Amy, would you switch back to the Brodix now that the T/W has a penalty?

[teddy]

You bring a very good point.... just not for your benefit:D . You're right, FFW was going to Outlaw the Brodix head because they have a raised exhaust port. I was one of the persons asking to allow them and so was John Scaro. I raced very little so it didn't matter, but Scaro never went quicker than 10.30's with 2 years on the Brodix. He switched to the T/W and went 9's with them at the first race after switching. Good Point!

So nothing else changed on his car right except for the heads!? B.S. I don't keep up with FFW much but isn't that when major changes took place!!

[teddy]

I was one of the persons asking to allow them and so was John Scaro.
If the T/W are better and FFW wanted to outlaw the brodix because of the raised port advantage and you didn't race much why didn't you so your lobbying then that the T/W is so much better? You should have lobyed for a weight break or penalty over there for the king of all heads T/W. Leave the rules alone, and yes weights are in the rule book last time I checked so it IS a rule. Everyone has the same list of parts to build a combo from. Brad switched, Amy switched etc.....I didn't see them complaining they just switched and did it quitely. And yes the modular may be the hot ticket and once again it is on the list of choices. If it proves to be superior I will switch then. But guess what all in all, I will end this non-sense debate and just watch it from here on out, even though I know Gene will probably multi-quote me. I will just weigh what I need to weigh.

[GeneHindman]

So nothing else changed on his car right except for the heads!? B.S. I don't keep up with FFW much but isn't that when major changes took place!!
Ya, I guess you're right... he had to change pistons to match his new heads. Just remember, he has now been 9.50's with the good trans. What major changes? You mean solid roller and cluthless trans? Just remember, he ran a T-5 until 9.70's.
But see, here lies the problem.... you guys just keep trying to harp on the irrelevant stuff.

[teddy]

Ya, I guess you're right... he had to change pistons to match his new heads. Just remember, he has now been 9.50's with the good trans. What major changes? You mean solid roller and cluthless trans? Just remember, he ran a T-5 until 9.70's.
But see, here lies the problem.... you guys just keep trying to harp on the irrelevant stuff.
I seem to remeber a Victor Jr. as well. Ever test that intake on a carb'd P/S engine??? I have and wow:eek: :eek: Whats irrelevant is you bringing up people who went faster when switching to T/W and not including all of those "FACTS" that alot of other things changed on their cars when they went faster. ooooppppssssss damn I'm done!;) :D See you boys and girls in FL.:)

[GeneHindman]

If the T/W are better and FFW wanted to outlaw the brodix because of the raised port advantage and you didn't race much why didn't you so your lobbying then that the T/W is so much better? You should have lobyed for a weight break or penalty over there for the king of all heads T/W. Ask for a weight break? Hell, they had to be legal first. Now your just talking non-sense. Leave the rules alone, and yes weights are in the rule book last time I checked so it IS a rule. Everyone has the same list of parts to build a combo from. Brad switched, Amy switched etc.....I didn't see them complaining they just switched and did it quitely. And yes the modular may be the hot ticket and once again it is on the list of choices. If it proves to be superior I will switch then. Then switch yourself and do it quietly.... oh too late right? But guess what all in all, I will end this non-sense debate and just watch it from here on out, even though I know Gene will probably multi-quote me. I will just weigh what I need to weigh.Just couldn't let you down now Teddy.:D

[GeneHindman]

I seem to remeber a Victor Jr. as well. Ever test that intake on a carb'd P/S engine??? I have and wow:eek: :eek: Whats irrelevant is you bringing up people who went faster when switching to T/W and not including all of those "FACTS" that alot of other things changed on their cars when they went faster. ooooppppssssss damn I'm done!;) :D See you boys and girls in FL.:)
Victor Jr.s were allowed at some point. I'm not positive when, but it was not legal when he switched from Brodix to T/W, even then, the Victor Jr. wasn't allowed to be ported to begin with either..and the dual plane intake was allowed to have anything done. Just how much difference is there between an out of the box Victor Jr and a Wilson worked Dual plane? Now just remember what you want to. That should justify things right?

[rmracing]

Gene , you are the one that started this mess , not me . My reason for comparing is because the combos are close , weather you want to admit it or not . What other 2 cars do you know of that are closer to compare . And i may have been a couple hundreds faster this year but i still never ran the 10.36 or whatever you got down to did i . Please give me a better example of cars that are the same other than heads in our class . You say im not helping myself and you are on here trying to say scaro picked up 4 tenths or whatever just changing heads , I highly doubt anyone on here will believe that one.

[Amy Sherwin]

Amy, would you switch back to the Brodix now that the T/W has a penalty?

Tough question

[Freddie]

My issue is not so much that they are going to impose a wieght penelty.. but the fact that now my car has got to wiegh over 3200#.. parts breakage will become a bigger issue for me...

insted of adding weight to the T/W setups.. ust simply allow less for everyone else.. lets keep the cars to a reasonable wight...

My car in NHRA SS trim is 2980#... we can run any intake and Steel Heads.. and any cam... I can best 11.0's...

Its bad enough to think about an engine change for a differant series... but to have to throw 300# in the car as well... SUCKS...

[GeneHindman]

Gene , you are the one that started this mess , not me . My reason for comparing is because the combos are close , weather you want to admit it or not . What other 2 cars do you know of that are closer to compare . And i may have been a couple hundreds faster this year but i still never ran the 10.36 or whatever you got down to did i . Please give me a better example of cars that are the same other than heads in our class . You say im not helping myself and you are on here trying to say scaro picked up 4 tenths or whatever just changing heads , I highly doubt anyone on here will believe that one.
Hell, you need to look back, You and a few others started this, I just put in my opinion and you started with me, the difference is that I defend myself with very valid points. I didn't post on this thread until the 28th post.
Besides, Scaro picked up a solid 3 tenths, so did Amy, and so did Brad. Now believe what you will, I could care less if anyone else believes it, they don't have to.

[rmracing]

Gene , Will you tell me why you said back in 05 that you could make Brads car run 10.20s with the edelbrock heads by only changing a couple small things . You said that you offered Brad to take hiss car home and you would give it back to him running 10.20s .Now you say it was just because of the twisted wedge. He couldnt have figured out the problem you knew of on his own could he ?

[LSX-GTO]

Gene,

You do know the TW heads the FFW "boys" were running only beared a minor resemblence to a set of P/S TW heads. There was more "weld" in the chambers than original aluminum casting by the time they were ready for seats and guides! The whole chamber configuration was only a ghost of the original TW design, and that was only "one" of the major reasons/changes for the TW rampage in SW. Had they been legal "as cast" castings, per NMRA P/S rules, I doubt they would have been as strong.

Anyway....

To stir up the pot in another way, "I" am probably the guy people are complaining about as being a "non-racer" with a viewpoint. No matter. I'm still going to say what I think.

"BEWARE of the FOUR-VALVE":eek:

Ed

[GeneHindman]

Gene , Will you tell me why you said back in 05 that you could make Brads car run 10.20s with the edelbrock heads by only changing a couple small things . You said that you offered Brad to take hiss car home and you would give it back to him running 10.20s .Now you say it was just because of the twisted wedge. He couldnt have figured out the problem you knew of on his own could he ?
He did! I don't recall saying I could do it with the heads he had. But either way, He is now kicking yours and alot of racers hindends.
You do know the TW heads the FFW "boys" were running only beared a minor resemblence to a set of P/S TW heads. There was more "weld" in the chambers than original aluminum casting by the time they were ready for seats and guides! The whole chamber configuration was only a ghost of the original TW design, and that was only "one" of the major reasons/changes for the TW rampage in SW. Had they been legal "as cast" castings, per NMRA P/S rules, I doubt they would have been as strong.Yes I know that Tooley was doing some major stuff with the T/W heads and the people he supported. Also too.. Scaro wasn't a Tooley supporter. He used the same guy on his Brodix as the T/W and the same guy also built his engines. I think his name was/is Chris Smith.
And I too like stirring the pot, and i agree with the 4 valve statement again...:D

[rmracing]

Gene i am done with this argument, ill let the nmra decide from here . I do hope that if the nmra insist on keeping this rule which i hope they dont , that you guys and gal ask for a 50 pound reduction for non tw heads and not to add weight to us , just like the aod rule . We definatly dont need to be another 50 over the mods or to be breaking anymore parts.

[Smav347]

I thought she changed but wasn't 100%

Yeah Ram is pretty cool deal.. Nothing like All motor on radials running LOW 9's!!!

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/e6be5b2e-174e-4d94-8a6e-988e00fd46ee.htm

Right now EFI has to weigh more...

Totally awesome.

[Shawn Johnson]

My issue is not so much that they are going to impose a wieght penelty.. but the fact that now my car has got to wiegh over 3200#.. parts breakage will become a bigger issue for me...



NMRA does not care about this argument.... 4v in FS still weigh 3400#s

[TEI]

NMRA does not care about this argument.... 4v in FS still weigh 3400#s

AND are limited to a 3.90 rear gear.

[vrtical]

AND are limited to a 3.90 rear gear.

its now 4.10 but big deal ;)

All this talk of 4v's has my head and checkbook stirring.

[sam sso2077]

Both changes affected me. One I agree with and expected, the other was lobby'd for by someone who doesn't run in the class and affects 98% of the class. I'm sure I'm wrong but the only one I know of off hand is Jimmy that runs a different head than the T/W.
Don't you have some SSO rules to complain about:p :D

Just remember someone nosing around in my rules thread this year, figured what comes around goes around.:D

for the record I do agree with you, the 50lbs on the TW head is totally unwarrented. it is B.S.

[teddy]

Just remember someone nosing around in my rules thread this year, figured what comes around goes around.:D

for the record I do agree with you, the 50lbs on the TW head is totally unwarrented. it is B.S.
Sammy, I know nothing about SSO rules, I'm just having some fun back at ya;) :D :D . BTW, I think you should have carbon panels!

[Underdog!]

Did someone say modular in a foxbody? :D

[Brian Tooley]

Very good points. I do know those anwsers as far as a T/W is concerned and they do suck. They do go turbulent rather quickly. Why don't we invite Ben Mens and maybe Danno in on this and give some insight, or any of the "PROFESSIONAL" enginebuilders/ head guru's.

All you have to do is ask around some of the forums, the AFR heads are superior to the Twisted Wedge. :p

Seriously though, if the TW heads carry extra weight, then so should the heads with raised exhaust ports, it's only fair. :confused:

I think the NMRA should keep the rules the way they are, if they add the weight for the TW heads in P/S then they should allow the High Ports in Renegade to make up for it :)

Peace and love....it's almost Christmas ya know.

[GeneHindman]

All you have to do is ask around some of the forums, the AFR heads are superior to the Twisted Wedge. :p You're right, AFR does have a superior head over the T/W, it just isn't the 165/185.

Seriously though, if the TW heads carry extra weight, then so should the heads with raised exhaust ports, it's only fair. :confused: Every "good" head porter makes all his ported heads have a raised exhaust port. Is that ".400" advertised raised exhaust" port equal to the .400" shorter intake runner and 15* valve? not even close. Might be on a better head.

I think the NMRA should keep the rules the way they are, if they add the weight for the TW heads in P/S then they should allow the High Ports in Renegade to make up for it :). WOW! Make up for what?


By the way, Don't you owe me some money?

[brian@afm]

Ya know what, I can write my name in the snow too!

What I'm trying to say is that this sort of banter isn't gonna get anything done. The weight penalty is stupid:eek: .

Gene, you ran side by side with Ron and got beat. You with your Brodix and Ron with his Twisted Wedges. The FACT is that he beat you on the tree. How about all Twisted Wedge entries give up .005 on the tree to all the Brodix entries:o The weight hit is insane. If they needed to carry extra weight then they should have had it 8 years ago, not now.

Be nice to me, it's almost Christmas.:p

[GeneHindman]

Ya know what, I can write my name in the snow too!

What I'm trying to say is that this sort of banter isn't gonna get anything done. The weight penalty is stupid:eek: .

Gene, you ran side by side with Ron and got beat. You with your Brodix and Ron with his Twisted Wedges. The FACT is that he beat you on the tree. How about all Twisted Wedge entries give up .005 on the tree to all the Brodix entries:o The weight hit is insane. If they needed to carry extra weight then they should have had it 8 years ago, not now.

Be nice to me, it's almost Christmas.:p
I seem to remember the weight being dropped a few times for the Carb cars to be competitive. Fact is, The weight had to be dropped for Ron to come back and be able to win....right? Being competitive wasn't an option right? Had to be able to win. That was done a few years ago and then again a few years later and then again in 2005. Now that someone made a valiant effort, and came out to race more than once a year,(not to mention.. probably never tested away from a NMRA race) the weight got added back. Now what's the difference in this year or eight years ago. As far as I can see, the Carb is still 75# lighter now, than it was 8 years ago. And you're right, I ran side by side and got beat by a car that only went to 2 races in the last 2 years. now that it has been ran a few times, a few things have been figured out and it is about 2 tenths faster than what I could have ran. Who's to say he don't have teens in it? He didn't get "Beat" all year long right? No need to show your hand then right... What about that 9" in the car and that Tremec that he's been lobbying for a weight break? You think there is some power left there? Merry X-mas.

[rmracing]

here are some stats from 01-05 seasons.

wins -brodix -13 runner up - 15
wins -trickflow-13 runner up - 10
wins- afr -8 runner up - 4
wins - edelbrock -1 runner up - 3

now sure this year trickflow won but Gene hindman, John McGowan , Dwayne Barbaree etc. dont run any more . If they were running still im sure they would all be running at the top .

There have been records set by all 4 brand heads also.

[ISSUES]

anyone please correct me if im wrong but, didnt Gene run a .30-.31 in BG '05?

if thats the case, how is Ron .20 faster than what Gene couldve run? Ron .21/Gene .30-.31, just doesnt add up.

Gene, are you sayin that you couldnt "find" teens in your old car? sorry, but im callin BS on that one. in '05 it appeared that you only "leaned" on it when you had to.

[GeneHindman]

anyone please correct me if im wrong but, didnt Gene run a .30-.31 in BG '05?.Yes I did.

if thats the case, how is Ron .20 faster than what Gene couldve run? Ron .21/Gene .30-.31, just doesnt add up..You don't know all the facts, so it wouldn't add up for you. Ron has a 9" and a Tremec. I ran a T-5 and a 8.8. What some of you don't know either is that I only ran 4 qts of 0w-10 oil in a 8 qt. pan to run that fast also.

Gene, are you sayin that you couldnt "find" teens in your old car? sorry, but im callin BS on that one. in '05 it appeared that you only "leaned" on it when you had to.My car wouldn't have ran teens unless it was 100# under weight at BG only. I barely ran in the 40's (10.48) in Columbus only 2 weeks before. BG had 40# wrong on the scales that year. I was 40# lighter than any race of the year, plus the air wasn't too shabby. Either way, I don't have to explain anything to you (although I did) to make a valid point. The only reason you are complaining is that it effects you, same for most of the others. I didn't ask for you all to have to go up in weight, I asked for the base to be dropped and you guys would still race at the same weight.
Oh, and I guess I didn't lean on it against Ron in the semis and I ran a 10.36 to his 10.36. I guess I should have ran 3 qts of oil.

[RHecox]

here are some stats from 01-05 seasons.

wins -brodix -13 runner up - 15
wins -trickflow-13 runner up - 10
wins- afr -8 runner up - 4
wins - edelbrock -1 runner up - 3

now sure this year trickflow won but Gene hindman, John McGowan , Dwayne Barbaree etc. dont run any more . If they were running still im sure they would all be running at the top .

There have been records set by all 4 brand heads also.


So, 3 seasons were won by Brodix heads and three seasons were won by Trick Flow.

seems like a reasonable amount of parity to me.

[GeneHindman]

here are some stats from 01-05 seasons.

wins -brodix -13 runner up - 15
wins -trickflow-13 runner up - 10
wins- afr -8 runner up - 4
wins - edelbrock -1 runner up - 3

now sure this year trickflow won but Gene hindman, John McGowan , Dwayne Barbaree etc. dont run any more . If they were running still im sure they would all be running at the top .

There have been records set by all 4 brand heads also.
Just remember, you have to be there to get a chance at winning, I was at every race from 02-05. And I believe that T/W won every race in 03 and 06.

[teddy]

Just remember, you have to be there to get a chance at winning, I was at every race from 02-05. And I believe that T/W won every race in 03 and 06.
Sorry Gene but I can't pass this one up. Your right, you do have to be there, maybe if you were there in '06 those SUPER MAN TFS T/W wouldn't have won every race. Just so you know.....YOU SAID IT! Back to the popcorn!!:D :D :D And Duane B. won in TX in '03

[RHecox]

Yes I did.

You don't know all the facts, so it wouldn't add up for you. Ron has a 9" and a Tremec. I ran a T-5 and a 8.8. What some of you don't know either is that I only ran 4 qts of 0w-10 oil in a 8 qt. pan to run that fast also.



I have tested the 12bolt and the 9" and found the 9" to be faster.

I know others that have tested the tremec against the T5 and found the Tremec to be faster.

I will be testing the tremec against the T5 myself in february.

If the weight penalty on the TFS stays I will be testing several heads too.

[teddy]

Who's to say he don't have teens in it? He didn't get "Beat" all year long right? No need to show your hand then right...
Here's another one that "you said" even if he did "sandbag as you may call it" who's to say you didn't sandbag in '05. This exact same logic applies to you as well. right??

[teddy]

You don't know all the facts, so it wouldn't add up for you. Ron has a 9" and a Tremec. I ran a T-5 and a 8.8.


Carefull there, if the 8.8 and t-5 are clearly faster then we may have to add weight to them, or better yet give a weight break to the tremec and 9":p

Damn it ran out of popcorn.

[RHecox]

Just remember, you have to be there to get a chance at winning, I was at every race from 02-05. And I believe that T/W won every race in 03 and 06.


Only because you werent there to compete. If only TFS heads are present only TFS heads can win.

people who put the time and effort with knowledgable help push forward and win races. It takes more than a good set of heads to win a race.

Nothing against Jimmy but if you were driving your old car do you think it would go faster? Let's say .1 faster... that would make it a 10.40 car with EFI

[RHecox]

Carefull there, if the 8.8 and t-5 are clearly faster then we may have to add weight to them, or better yet give a weight break to the tremec and 9":p

Damn it ran out of popcorn.


I'll take it if you're offering!

[rmracing]

The 10.36 record that was made at the first race of 05 was using a tremec and was held until the last race of o5 even though the t5 was put in about mid season the car still hadnt ran any faster until B.G. 05

[brian@afm]

I'm hearing a lot of "Ron doesn't test and his Twisted Wedge headed car still kicks" from you Gene.

Before I go any further, I want to be clear because I hate this emotionless keyboard:o . I have much respect for you and your abilities! However, Ron was pretty well done testing when you and I were in grade school. He understands all the mechanics and is able to visualize what's going on in the engine, trans, rear, and front and rear suspension. Brian and I show up at a race, make 3-4 hits before qualifying in order to try to figure out what the car is going to want. Ron shows up, watches a few cars, makes (1) qualifying hit, makes whatever changes he feels are necessary, rolls up the windows and goes and gets some dinner.

Ron only raced a limited schedule in the past couple of years because it's not Ron's car and he couldn't / wouldn't foot the bill to do it. Plain and simple.

Merry X-MAS to you and yours!

[JWilson]

Nothing against Jimmy but if you were driving your old car do you think it would go faster? Let's say .1 faster... that would make it a 10.40 car with EFI
Then please leave him out of this. BTW Didn't Rich run a 10.2? in BG last year with the motor you have, claiming that he couldn't drive a stick and that there was more in it? And now you've switched to a carb and found even more power?....that would make it a 10.teen car with a carb.

[LXguy]

With the way things went last year, it seems like throwing weight on carbs and TFS heads might be a little excessive.

It's pretty much irrelevant, though.

The 4V is going to be out of control if someone builds a serious car.

Modular pilots: Make sure you get your NHRA license this winter. :cool:

:eek:

[vrtical]

The only out of control 4V is mine and it likes to spit parts everywhere.

[Brandon Alsept]

With the way things went last year, it seems like throwing weight on carbs and TFS heads might be a little excessive.

It's pretty much irrelevant, though.

The 4V is going to be out of control if someone builds a serious car.

Modular pilots: Make sure you get your NHRA license this winter. :cool:

:eek:


Well glad I was just out there having fun this year and not being serious.:rolleyes:

Now the NHRA license that is a funny comment there, although my car is certified to 8.50s;)

[LXguy]

Well glad I was just out there having fun this year and not being serious.:rolleyes:

Now the NHRA license that is a funny comment there, although my car is certified to 8.50s;)

Sheesh: No offense intended!

Get your physical! (if they still require one, that is)

Steve

[ISSUES]

The only out of control 4V is mine and it likes to spit parts everywhere.

i'll vouch for that statement, doh! :)

[vrtical]

i'll vouch for that statement, doh! :)

get back to the garage slacker. Did you get those new improved non TFS heads yet :eek:

[GeneHindman]

Sorry Gene but I can't pass this one up. Your right, you do have to be there, maybe if you were there in '06 those SUPER MAN TFS T/W wouldn't have won every race. Just so you know.....YOU SAID IT! Back to the popcorn!!:D :D :D And Duane B. won in TX in '03
Yup, you're right, I pulled a "Ron". No need in coming if I don't have a shot at it. And again, you're right.. I forgot that Dwayne won TX. I think I just wanted to forget TX all together.
I have tested the 12bolt and the 9" and found the 9" to be faster. Hmmmm. I can't argue this, I do not how each was set-up.

I know others that have tested the tremec against the T5 and found the Tremec to be faster. So have I and I know which one is faster. And I asked for the penalty on the T-5 when it came out and it didn't go over well with Tech.

If the weight penalty on the TFS stays I will be testing several heads too. And You will still be using the T/W head when you're done testing.
Carefull there, if the 8.8 and t-5 are clearly faster then we may have to add weight to them, or better yet give a weight break to the tremec and 9"They came factory in the Mustang, hard to get weight added for it, and for the next argument... weight break for the 9" and Tremec has been asked for.... by me and Ron. It hasn't worked yet. They said you're giving up a little speed for reliability. Not much to argue about there. The tremec has a better chance staying in the car through-out eliminations and not costing you a round.
I'm hearing a lot of "Ron doesn't test and his Twisted Wedge headed car still kicks" from you Gene. Just going off what he told me. I also know alot more that he's asked me not to say anything about. So, just let it go at that. Happy New Year to you!
BTW Didn't Rich run a 10.2? in BG last year with the motor you have, claiming that he couldn't drive a stick and that there was more in it? And now you've switched to a carb and found even more power?....that would make it a 10.teen car with a carb. WOW! You're right, I think I was told he went a 10.05 testing NMRA legal after the season was over also. But we all know he went a 10.29 and granny shifted 2nd.
With the way things went last year, it seems like throwing weight on carbs and TFS heads might be a little excessive. Possibly, but I think it's more about making the field more even at this time. Like they did in 05 after KC race. People seem to forget too that the carb is allowed a 1" spacer now too instead of the 1/2" and that in itself is worth close to 5-8 HP.

[Thom Bates]

Be sure to send your rules change requests to nmrarules@promediapub.com, tbates@promediapub.com, and mbruns@promediapub.com if don't like what you see...... if you don't tell us what you think and we don't hear from you, don't complain during the year!

[ET/MPH]

Are you suppose to send rules revisions to all three?

[teddy]

the tbates, and mruns e-mails don't work. They were sent back to me as an invalid e-mail. I got the one to nmrarules went through. Hopefully that will be enough!!!!:rolleyes:

[teddy]

try this:
tbates@promediapub.com
mbruns@promediapub.com
nmrarules@promediapub.com

:) :) :)

[LSX-GTO]

Crap... Just found out my LS7 heads aren't P/S legal!

;)

[Amy Sherwin]

Sent

[Thom Bates]

Email links fixed today.... sorry to all

[Thom Bates]

Alright everyone,
There's just 2 days left to make your submissions. Again, emails are to be sent to nmrarules@promediapub.com, tbates@promediapub.com, and mbruns@promediapub.com. The most important one, if all the typing of email addresses is too much, is my email address.

And an FYI for everyone that has sent in a request...... I've sent back a response to every single email request I received..... so if you didn't get a response, you need to double check the email address and resent to me (tbates@promediapub.com).

Have a great New Year's.
Thom

[PURESTREET5006]

Why didn't they just leave the rules alone:mad: Or just give the EFI guys a 25lbs weight break:mad:

[Brandon Alsept]

Why don't you just put EFI on your car;)







Sorry had to do it
:D

[sam sso2077]

Why is it that the Trick Flow Heads are the only ones that are being penalized with +50lbs? This is a load of B.S!

I assume this would apply to the Holley head too, right? after all it's a non-oem valve angle at 17*, just curious.

[PURESTREET5006]

Why don't you just put EFI on your car;)







Sorry had to do it
:D

Brandon...I don't have that much "CASH" laying around for the change over.

[ET/MPH]

I assume this would apply to the Holley head too, right? after all it's a non-oem valve angle at 17*, just curious.

NO sir just the TW heads.The valve angle is 15*, and majority run them.

[sam sso2077]

NO sir just the TW heads.The valve angle is 15*, and majority run them.

I know the Tw's are 15*, but Holley heads are 17* which is also not OEM valve angle. So itshould apply to both.

Kinda like putting weight on Yates heads in a class which have 7.5 & 8.5* valve angles and not putting weight on Neal head which have 11* & 8.5* valve angles when they in the same arena.

Good luck to all you TW head guys ,think you're getting screwed.

[LSX-GTO]

For more info...

Read the post about "other" heads without the OEM 20* valve angle.

Early Holley (discontinued) - Canfield 180 (new head available from Jegs) AND the TW head.

ONLY the TW are ROTATED and ROLLED valve angles. Just like the NEAL heads. ;)

The rest are true inline valve configuration. "Might" have something to do with the penalty.

[sam sso2077]

For more info...

Read the post about "other" heads without the OEM 20* valve angle.

Early Holley (discontinued) - Canfield 180 (new head available from Jegs) AND the TW head.

ONLY the TW are ROTATED and ROLLED valve angles. Just like the NEAL heads. ;)

The rest are true inline valve configuration. "Might" have something to do with the penalty.

Actually the Yates are rotated like the TW stuff, the Neal heads have very little valve rotation compared to the Yates head and more valve angle.

[teddy]

Just curious?????? Why is the T/W just now becoming an issue? It has been the same for the last 6 years it has been legal, and the brodix/afr/edelbrock have all competed well. Why now?????? Ed, you formerly pushed the AFR as the P/S head even when the T/W was still the same as it is now, and then switched to favor the T/W(maybe I'm wrong in that assumption), but why all the drama now???????? Why not in 2002 when the AFR(McGowan)Brodix(Gene) battled it out or in 2005 when Gene won again? Gene why not then?????

[GeneHindman]

Just curious?????? Why is the T/W just now becoming an issue? It has been the same for the last 6 years it has been legal, and the brodix/afr/edelbrock have all competed well. Why now?????? Ed, you formerly pushed the AFR as the P/S head even when the T/W was still the same as it is now, and then switched to favor the T/W(maybe I'm wrong in that assumption), but why all the drama now???????? Why not in 2002 when the AFR(McGowan)Brodix(Gene) battled it out or in 2005 when Gene won again? Gene why not then?????
No one showed the potential of the T/W until Rich, Brad, and Ron did within the last 1 season and 1 race.(BG 2005). Same way for the Carb penalty that slowly dissapeared over the years and suddenly it needs addressed again.

[rmracing]

Ron Anderson and Rich Groh could both kick butt no matter which head they chose to run. Ron was a NHRA champ back in 1980 i believe , He has owned his own performance shop and has ported heads and done machine work . I even remember looking back at a very old mustang mag and seeing where he had a class teaching others about building horsepower. Rich builds engines for a living every day and has more knowledge than the rest of us also . With guys like this it will always be hard to keep up no matter what head they have. This racing is a very expensive hobby for most of us , guys like Ron and Rich have made there living doing this stuff. It would be like taking your work baseball team and playing the yankees. I doubt your work team would win .



Rocky

[GeneHindman]

Ron Anderson and Rich Groh could both kick butt no matter which head they chose to run. Ron was a NHRA champ back in 1980 i believe , He has owned his own performance shop and has ported heads and done machine work . I even remember looking back at a very old mustang mag and seeing where he had a class teaching others about building horsepower. Rich builds engines for a living every day and has more knowledge than the rest of us also . With guys like this it will always be hard to keep up no matter what head they have. This racing is a very expensive hobby for most of us , guys like Ron and Rich have made there living doing this stuff. It would be like taking your work baseball team and playing the yankees. I doubt your work team would win .



Rocky
Well, good luck with winning a race with that attitude.

[rmracing]

Gene ,all i am saying is you have to give some credit to Ron and Richs programs and why they go fast is not just because what head they run.

[GeneHindman]

Gene ,all i am saying is you have to give some credit to Ron and Richs programs and why they go fast is not just because what head they run.
I give up, You all know more than I do about the whole industry.

[rmracing]

Gene , We all know that you also have a good program , we are just on defence mode right know about out tw combos . What would you have said back in 05 when you held the record and were untouchable with your brodix heads if someone wanted to penalize your brodix heads . Would you say that it was not your heads and that you had a good racing program and experience over the other racers ? Lets go back to 05 , if someone wanted to , they would have had a pretty good argument that the brodix heads were better , wouldnt they . I personaly believe that you won because of your experience and dedication to winning , not your heads . I think you could have won in 05 with any of the top heads , the same as i believe Ron and Rich could win with heads other than tw.

[LSX-GTO]

Just curious?????? Why is the T/W just now becoming an issue? It has been the same for the last 6 years it has been legal, and the brodix/afr/edelbrock have all competed well. Why now?????? Ed, you formerly pushed the AFR as the P/S head even when the T/W was still the same as it is now, and then switched to favor the T/W(maybe I'm wrong in that assumption), but why all the drama now???????? Why not in 2002 when the AFR(McGowan)Brodix(Gene) battled it out or in 2005 when Gene won again? Gene why not then?????

Teddy,

I did get "involved" a bit with the head(s) rules but after a few "battle scars" I knew I'd be wasting too much of my time and efforts that should be focused elsewhere. Yes I ran through a few different heads while "testing" and even some of those odd ball Holleys! I still basically used what the customer provided, most times. Remember back in the day, you provided some TW heads? As did Darin Hendricks, Denny Hioureas and a few others.

Now I did see some gains using some reworked AFR heads "when" all the rules were actually followed, and before the advent of some of the "new" head rules, but again, I wasted a boatload of time fighting city hall and it's just not worth it. Why? As soon as I saw what "others" where doing to the TW heads, and getting them by the rules, well... I figured it's just best to play in another arena. Why I'm still "thinking" about a return is just plain stupid and/or old age.... Grandpa is having a lot of fun and it's contageous! :D I do "really" like Mean Street though. ;)

As for drama... it's getting cold and it's winter... Aruba is calling very loudly ... I'm on some great pain pills for my back ... Pick one! :D

"da goat"

[Stephen Johnson]

I have to agree with the guys up above, by saying I belive Ron A and Rich G. could have dominated the class with any head. It was just so happening that they did it with a TW head. Not throwing stones at any of you guys, but I belive any head could dominate this class. TW,AFR, Edel,etc.....take your pick:D

[GeneHindman]

I have to agree with the guys up above, by saying I belive Ron A and Rich G. could have dominated the class with any head. It was just so happening that they did it with a TW head. Not throwing stones at any of you guys, but I belive any head could dominate this class. TW,AFR, Edel,etc.....take your pick:D
See, you only remember what you want to.... You are leaving out Brad Meadows too. He consistently ran 10.20/30's this year. He switched from Edelbrocks (consistently 10.50's) with a few years of trying with those heads. Now in his first season with a "Good" head, he is faster than anyone else using the same combo with a few years experiance with it. What's Brad going to do when he's got 2-3 seasons with this head. He is testing more than anyone else, and has for a year now. He'll figure out things that others wont, because he is trying to test. It doesn't matter who does this stuff for a living or who has been doing it for 40 years, if you aint out testing the new products and trying new things, you wont be successful at it. Today's technology is faster/quicker than yesterday's. If you live in the 90's you'll be running 1990 times.

[Stephen Johnson]

Excuse, me....i forgot about Bad Brad Meadows........oh he could have dominated with any head also. It's almost like a T/W P/S class..lol...but no seriously, any head can dominate this class. Even the Brodix....:D

[BigEd]

Does it have to be Ron, Rich, Brad or Gene ???
Anyone who has the time, money to put together a well worked combo and then go out and pratice would be able to go out and win. Wouldn't they ???
This is not about my heads and better then your heads........
Does the #50 weight penalty suck? I guess, I asked another time how much effect #50 really had and 'know one' answered me.
You guys sound like bitchy old hags argueing over bingo or something. LMAO - really :rolleyes:
I bought my car to have fun with, when I knew I had a lot of work to do if I ever wanted to be competitive. I would like to say see you all in Fla, but doubtful since I have other commitments to take care of in the next 60 days.

[GeneHindman]

Does it have to be Ron, Rich, Brad or Gene ???
Anyone who has the time, money to put together a well worked combo and then go out and pratice would be able to go out and win. Wouldn't they ???
This is not about my heads and better then your heads........
Does the #50 weight penalty suck? I guess, I asked another time how much effect #50 really had and 'know one' answered me.
You guys sound like bitchy old hags argueing over bingo or something. LMAO - really :rolleyes:
I bought my car to have fun with, when I knew I had a lot of work to do if I ever wanted to be competitive. I would like to say see you all in Fla, but doubtful since I have other commitments to take care of in the next 60 days.
Well, thanks for joining the "Bitchy Ol' Hag club". You're are now officially the newest member and initiation will follow.
By the way, you left out "Knowledge" with the time and money. And if this not about "my heads are better than yours" then what is it about? 50 lbs will vary on how much it will effect different combinations. It will be less than a tenth on all combinations. Base weight used to be 3200 also.
I-27.....
















BINGO

[BigEd]

Well, thanks for joining the "Bitchy Ol' Hag club". You're are now officially the newest member and initiation will follow. [/B]


Well thanks for having me! (I think) Even though I have not been class racing long enough to start bitching and whining (of course I do have some cheese down stairs in the fridge for anyone that wants to come and join me in my initiation)

And if this not about "my heads are better than yours" then what is it about? 50 lbs will vary on how much it will effect different combinations. It will be less than a tenth on all combinations. Base weight used to be 3200 also.

To take a saying from one of my favorite movies:
[clint eastwood voice and one eye stair] - Adapt, improvise and over come

[BigEd]

Oh and Gene it is nothing personal. I just used you and the others for examples, for being one of the top runners.
You are completely right - knowledge is power! Hell I am still trying to figure out how to use my PMS. But I am not out begging for hand outs or help either. ;)

[GeneHindman]

. But I am not out begging for hand outs or help either. ;)No need to worry about it either. The hand-outs aren'y usually that good anyway. It's those that figure out how to work on every aspect of their ride themselves and can figure what needs to be done before the next pass, that'll excel above the rest. The others that depend on someone else to do their tuning for them may not be able to give that person the feedback needed to improve from the last pass. You have to have the feel also, and that stuff isn't taught and can't be learned.
I have given subtle lessons throughout the past few weeks and I doubt very many have picked up on them, actually, the guys/gals that already know, probably caught them, but knew there was no reason to comment about them.