How many wanted the weight

[clmrhayden]

I just wanted to see how many people wanted to keep the weight on the TW now that it is Jan 1. I would like to keep the weight just for the fact it stirs things up. :D

[teddy]

Hehehe, aint that the truth.

Honestly though. the majority uses T/W, and not a single person is/was wanting to add anything to their combo. Of course the NMRA got several negative responses regarding the weight addition to the T/W head, But I bet none of them were from Non-T/W users.
And I bet none of the one's in favor were T/W users. Your twisted logic works both ways:rolleyes:

[RHecox]

my proposal was to give a weight break to non tw heads and leave the tw alone. this way you dont let the modular guys run away with the class.

[GeneHindman]

I just wanted to see how many people wanted to keep the weight on the TW now that it is Jan 1. I would like to keep the weight just for the fact it stirs things up. :D
Hehehe, aint that the truth.

Honestly though. the majority uses T/W, and not a single person is/was wanting to add anything to their combo. Of course the NMRA got several negative responses regarding the weight addition to the T/W head, But I bet none of them were from Non-T/W users.

[GeneHindman]

And I bet none of the one's in favor were T/W users. Your twisted logic works both ways:rolleyes:
Maybe you can twist it anyway you like it, but don't say I am the one with Twisted logic.

And by the way, How did you quote me before I posted?

[Brandon Alsept]

Because the guys with TW heads move faster than the speed of the net:D


LOL

[teddy]

Maybe you can twist it anyway you like it, but don't say I am the one with Twisted logic.

And by the way, How did you quote me before I posted?
Mine and Ryan's posted before yours, but you indeed did post first, that is definately weird. I was wondering how that happened myself:confused: Maybe Brandon is on to something;)

[rmracing]

Seems like the majority of voters against the twisted wedge are mod guys . Whats up with that . Do you guys really think you need more of a weight break ?

[teddy]

Seems like the majority of voters against the twisted wedge are mod guys . Whats up with that . Do you guys really think you need more of a weight break ?
How can you view the results of who voted for what??

[rmracing]

Teddy , click on the red vote numbers and it will pop up who voted.

[teddy]

What I find more interesting is the two that voted for them to be banned!:confused: Why would you want them banned??? Are you that far behind that you couldn't catch up???? I could give ya a few #'s for some people who would at least get ya close with what ya have:rolleyes: And for the one that is starting fresh, why not just start with T/W??? I know you have a few laying around?

[rmracing]

Thanks Brandon , I am glad to see a mod on our side . I also noticed stickmans crew gave a vote for the twisted wedge and they dont run twisted wedge . At least there are a couple of resonable people out there.

[vrtical]

I am glad to see a mod on our side .

I am on your side for other reasons namely 2, but given the possible advantage, I could see how you could not want it. Seeing how Brandon and Victor voted opposite makes my head spin :)

[TEI]

Seems like the majority of voters against the twisted wedge are mod guys . Whats up with that . Do you guys really think you need more of a weight break ?

I recognize 3 of the 7 as modular participants.

The modulars haven't run any 20's or 30's. This year they touched the 40's. So we'll take a 50# break.

[teddy]

I recognize 3 of the 7 as modular participants.

The modulars haven't run any 20's or 30's. This year they touched the 40's. So we'll take a 50# break.
COBRAX-Mike Tymensky
Daddyfixer-Vic Downs
ScottyB-P/S 5134 4V motor
TEI-John Tymensky

[rmracing]

John , didnt you guys run a 10.41 in bg with your first halfway clean pass on the car and were still working out some bugs . I also remember Victor going 129 mph at an event , sorry no pushrod efi tw cars are going 129 . Another thing is your 10.41 matches the fastest efi pushrod time for the year by Ryan and that was with tons of clean passes on that car . It seems the only cars faster than you are the carbs and they are already getting a penalty. Another thing i remember was in bg when i was asking you guys about the scales being off you said it didnt matter because your car was over weight anyways .

[Brandon Alsept]

Well well my vote has threw a wrench in the entire thread. That's cool :D

I voted the way I did for one reason. I feel there was one combo that had a advantage. That was the carb cars and they got some weight put on them I don't think it was enough weight but some in the right direction. I think add weight to the carb and the class should be tight. But what do I know:rolleyes:

[clmrhayden]

What I find more interesting is the two that voted for them to be banned!:confused: Why would you want them banned??? Are you that far behind that you couldn't catch up???? I could give ya a few #'s for some people who would at least get ya close with what ya have:rolleyes: And for the one that is starting fresh, why not just start with T/W??? I know you have a few laying around?


I was just messing around. If you cant tell from the first post I don’t care what happens now because we have no control over it. I also don’t think that the TW heads should get the weight and I cant believe Ed wants them banned either.

I don’t think we will be to far behind next year with the work getting done now and the new t-56. Oh I hope that stays I just ordered it last week. If not does anyone want a $5k 4-speed t-56. :D

Later

[LSX-GTO]

Observations....

Edelbrock, Holley 20* and AFR cylinder heads are pretty much the exact same architecture as the OEM Ford heads. Let's leave them off the discussion for a few minutes.

All the other P/S legal heads have "some" features that are off base from the original Ford concept. I'd like to see how these "others" play out.

Now... for the fun...:D

Holley had some 17* heads from the old days and from "memory" (stop laughing Gene) I believe Brodix casted them. They had rolled valve locations and a 1/2" raised exhaust port. I believe the valve centers were moved to identically match the Brodix ST50 heads but I will have to measure then to be accurate. No one "currently" uses these cylinder head in P/S but I bet, in the right hands, they would work.

Since I mentioned the ST50 heads, let's talk about them next..

The Brodix ST50 heads are listed now, but they weren't in the original list from the 1999 Rule Book. They were added to the "approved" list after Mitch Masten and I had a meeting with Mark F./Brodix at RT66 a long time ago. The logic we followed, for allowing them (even with their .119"-.053" relocated valves) was the design of the "approved" TW heads. Since TW valve locations were far from the OEM Ford's and moved all around, why not allow the ST50 heads? Tada... "legal".

Speaking of all moved around valve locations, I *snicker* sometimes as to reasons why the 192 Canfields aren't allowed in this class? They have the same style moved valve locations (though less than Brodix) and also feature a raised exhaust port (also like Brodix) yet they are not legal... Hmmm...:confused:

OK... Canfield...

Canfiild is represented in P/S but the only legal Canfield is their street 18* head, which no one uses but again, maybe in the right hands, these heads might be a player. Anyone with a big budget want to try them? Hello John...

OK... Now we come to the "controversial" TW heads.

Though I doubt anyone outside of the original NMRA Tech gang actually knew this, but the original P/S rules written back in 1998, did not allow these heads. :eek:

The rotated valve centers and shallow valve angles were the reason Mitch and I didn't want them in the class. Yes, I know they were legal to run in 1999 but the original drafts had them "off the list". Guess Mitch and I should have stuck to our guns and all this controversy would be gone. :D

Anyway... I SERIOUSLY doubt the 50# penalty is anything for a good racer to worry about. Come on people, a rolled and rotated valve head that you can pretty much put those guide centers where ever the hell you wanted, and you're worried about 50 pounds?

I think I'll petition for the Canfield 192 and the TFS High Port next year. The valve centers are only moved .110"-.040" and P/S rules already allow two raised exhaust port heads so why not the High Port and Canfield 192?

... awaiting the wrath ...

[TEI]

COBRAX-Mike Tymensky
Daddyfixer-Vic Downs
ScottyB-P/S 5134 4V motor
TEI-John Tymensky


My bad as I didn't know ScottyB was a 4V.

[teddy]

My bad as I didn't know ScottyB was a 4V.
No prob, just helpin a brutha out;) ;) :D

[teddy]

Hey Ed, eerrrr I mean LSX-GTO. Obviouslly you're not gonna run the T/W and by your sig, you're prolly gonna run AFR, so I can see why you are in favor of the penalty:rolleyes:

[LSX-GTO]

Hey Ed, eerrrr I mean LSX-GTO. Obviouslly you're not gonna run the T/W and by your sig, you're prolly gonna run AFR, so I can see why you are in favor of the penalty:rolleyes:

Roll yer eyes all you want Teddy but I may not even run P/S... I don't like sticks and may talk to the car's owner about another venue...

As for the TW penalty ... I couldn't care less ... There's more to the combo than just the heads ... I think the carb penalty is more an issue that should have been addressed ... Then the 4 valves ... All I asked for in 2007 was a C4 and Thom beat me with a clutch disc ... :p

"da goat"

[NMRA Jason]

Roll yer eyes all you want Teddy but I may not even run P/S... I don't like sticks and may talk to the car's owner about another venue...

See you in Florida, Shorty.

[LSX-GTO]

See you in Florida, Shorty.

Doubt it Jason... I don't go unless I get paid. ;)

[TEI]

I don't go unless I get paid. ;)

I have a dollar and I'll buy you a drink.

[NMRA Jason]

Doubt it Jason... I don't go unless I get paid. ;)

Did you change your last name???

[GeneHindman]

Ed,
I'm not going to copy and paste a bunch of this but I wanted to make a couple of points that may or may not matter. Aluminum heads weren't allowed until 2001 I thought. Secondly, since we have mentioned Mark Fretz's name, he also told me that he could prove that every head out there that will accept a 2.02 valve has the valve centers moved for this to be possible. I do not know, just telling what someone with some knowledge told me. And yes Brodix did cast those 17* Holley heads. I would have loved to be able to get a hold of a set of those in the past. Could care less now though:D . And yes, that raised exhaust port in theory should be worth a little, maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but either way, I still know the T/W is a way better head. And like I said before, every good head porter makes his ports raised when he is porting his heads. Just another little tid bit... Even though the Brodix has a raised exhaust port, I still used the standard headers that everyone else did. You can't get away with that on the "Other" raised exhaust ports. I do not completely know why. I'm not completely sure that the "Port" is raised .400" but maybe only the bolt-holes are moved .400". The exhaust port on a ST50 is supposedly only .100" less raised than a high port, but the appearance of the port is dramatically different on the 2 side by side. Either way, I know that if I came back now, I would have to start from scratch, and I would still buy the T/W and use the weight penalty.
Oh and Z-Man's crew is Randy Soper (sp) and he runs T/W on his yellow P/S car last I remember. Stickman runs Edelbrocks. And Brandon tunes on Rocky's EFI car. Just food for thought.

[LSX-GTO]

Did you change your last name???

Nope... just my racing practices. I don't like financing other people's dreams.

[rmracing]

Gene , if the exhaust ports are raised from the factory the floor of the ports would be raised also. Sure you can try to raise the exhaust with porting but the floor cant be raised unless you weld on it and that would be illegal in PS. If the brodix are already raised then are you saying your headporter couldnt have raised them any more .

If you would come back you say you would run twisted wedge , or was that a modular you said you would run . If you would go with twisted wedge then why would you get a penalty put on them . Are you saying you would need to slow your own car down to help others out . That would be very nice of you.


There is power in the exhaust side of heads and that is another area the twisted wedge are lacking in.

[RHecox]

so can I get a weight break for a 9" and a tremec?

please?

[clmrhayden]

so can I get a weight break for a 9" and a tremec?

please?

Yes but just not in NMRA....:p

[LSX-GTO]

Ed,
I'm not going to copy and paste a bunch of this but I wanted to make a couple of points that may or may not matter. Aluminum heads weren't allowed until 2001 I thought.

Told you the memory was toast. The Vicadin helps too. :D

Secondly, since we have mentioned Mark Fretz's name, he also told me that he could prove that every head out there that will accept a 2.02 valve has the valve centers moved for this to be possible.

True but not as severely as the High Port, Canfield "and" the ST50 heads.

I do not know, just telling what someone with some knowledge told me. And yes Brodix did cast those 17* Holley heads. I would have loved to be able to get a hold of a set of those in the past. Could care less now though:D .

Same here. ;)

And yes, that raised exhaust port in theory should be worth a little, maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but either way, I still know the T/W is a way better head.

The TW design is flawed a little, but the overall rolled and rotated valve design is the best head package (re: Pro Stock) and it can be corrected with some expensive but "creative" machining.

And like I said before, every good head porter makes his ports raised when he is porting his heads.

If needed ... yes... However, even the best flowing exhaust ports suffer if the headers are junk but that's a whole "other" story.

Just another little tid bit... Even though the Brodix has a raised exhaust port, I still used the standard headers that everyone else did. You can't get away with that on the "Other" raised exhaust ports.

I have the 192 Canfields and the High Port heads here and I've bolted up stock type MAC shorties to them. Like I said, maybe next year I'll send some bare 192 heads to Thom for approval. ;)

I do not completely know why. I'm not completely sure that the "Port" is raised .400" but maybe only the bolt-holes are moved .400".

I always liked the use of a 1/2" aluminum adapter to correct any issues like that.

The exhaust port on a ST50 is supposedly only .100" less raised than a high port, but the appearance of the port is dramatically different on the 2 side by side.

High Port runs about 3/4" over stock. The Canfield about 7/16" and the Brodix about 1/2". Too bad none of them have the spark plug in the right place.

Either way, I know that if I came back now, I would have to start from scratch, and I would still buy the T/W and use the weight penalty.

Me too but I sold off all the good heads and I would probably wouldn't want to spend that much time working on them anyway. Takes too long to recoup the money from the racer.

Hello Mean Street? ;)

Oh and Z-Man's crew is Randy Soper (sp) and he runs T/W on his yellow P/S car last I remember. Stickman runs Edelbrocks. And Brandon tunes on Rocky's EFI car. Just food for thought.

As I said in the other post ... TW guys just need to take the penalty and race. The 50 pounds is squat... Especially after the heads are "fixed". ;)

Let's see......... where's my LSX stuff???? :D

[Ian Mullane]

Aluminum heads were definately leagal in 2000. Not sure about 99 but Ed should know.

[Brandon Alsept]

And Brandon tunes on Rocky's EFI car. Just food for thought.


LOL that has nothing to do with this. Yeah we help Rocky out with his car, so what. If I felt he had a huge advantage with the T/W heads I would say so. I feel the Carbs were the only combo that needed something done. They now have another 50lbs which I think is a little low but should help even the field out. I guess we will see how NMRA feels on the subject.

[RHecox]

I just wanted to see how many people wanted to keep the weight on the TW now that it is Jan 1. I would like to keep the weight just for the fact it stirs things up. :D


My mother always told me if I didnt have anything nice to say I shouldnt say anything at all.

[teddy]

so can I get a weight break for a 9" and a tremec?

please?
I 2nd that;)

[LSX-GTO]

I 2nd that;)

"No break for you"

"No break for you"

150# penalty for pretty paint!

:D

[Z-MAN]

Oh and Z-Man's crew is Randy Soper (sp) and he runs T/W on his yellow P/S car last I remember. Stickman runs Edelbrocks.
Who the hell is Randy Soper? Just kidding Randy is a good friend of ours. Yes he runs T/W heads but hasnt run in a few years and I dont think you will see him again in P/S. Fred (Stickman) hurt the Edelbrocks awhile back and is now running AFRs. Fred is going to try and hit a few races this year. Good luck to everybody.
Later. Ed (Z-Man)

[GeneHindman]

Gene , if the exhaust ports are raised from the factory the floor of the ports would be raised also. Sure you can try to raise the exhaust with porting but the floor cant be raised unless you weld on it and that would be illegal in PS. If the brodix are already raised then are you saying your headporter couldnt have raised them any more . I said "I don't know". I just know there is a huge difference in the floors and roof of a high port over the ST50 and supposedly there is only .100" difference. And yes my head porter could have raised them more, but the floors of the spring seats are not thick enough to do so on this head.

If you would come back you say you would run twisted wedge , or was that a modular you said you would run . If you would go with twisted wedge then why would you get a penalty put on them . Are you saying you would need to slow your own car down to help others out . That would be very nice of you. I can afford to use some of my spare parts laying around and add heads and pistons... I can't afford to buy a complete modular engine from top to bottom plus a K-member, wiring harness, processor, headers, bellhousing, flywheel... you get my drift? Modular is the best way to go, but If I came back, I would use T/W. Unless someone else was sponsoring the ride.


There is power in the exhaust side of heads and that is another area the twisted wedge are lacking in. They're not lacking... They're just not superior in that area. And yes there is power in the exhaust side of the head, just how much is the question... We're not running 14.1 compression or a power adder, so how much is there?

[GeneHindman]

Aluminum heads were definately leagal in 2000. Not sure about 99 but Ed should know.
I'm just going off memory, but when Tom Payn won the championship in 2000, he was using GT-40P heads and any gas, etc. etc. I was using GT-40 heads. The following year, we all bought aluminum heads. You may be right, I just don't know why none of us were using them if they were legal.
Who the hell is Randy Soper? Just kidding Randy is a good friend of ours. Yes he runs T/W heads but hasnt run in a few years and I dont think you will see him again in P/S. Fred (Stickman) hurt the Edelbrocks awhile back and is now running AFRs. Fred is going to try and hit a few races this year. Good luck to everybody.
Later. Ed (Z-Man) sorry man, for some reason I thought Z-MAN=Randy. I stand corrected.

[LXguy]

Ed,
Aluminum heads weren't allowed until 2001 I thought.

Gene:

Aluminum heads were legal in 2000. I won a race with (ahem) TFS Twisted Wedges that year. :D

Ah, those were the days to race with the NMRA. No spec fuel, less politics. There was only one car with race brakes that year. LOL!

Steve

[Z-MAN]

sorry man, for some reason I thought Z-MAN=Randy. I stand corrected.


Thats OK Gene you still the man in our book! :cool: Hope to see you out at the races this year. :)

[clmrhayden]

My mother always told me if I didnt have anything nice to say I shouldnt say anything at all.

Since when have you bit your tongue?

Anyway does anyone have word on when we will get final rules released? I don’t think we will have time to test our new Brodix/Systemax combo if they wait too much longer. With the new t-56 it's like a whole new car.

[vrtical]

I can afford to use some of my spare parts laying around and add heads and pistons... I can't afford to buy a complete modular engine from top to bottom plus a K-member, wiring harness, processor, headers, bellhousing, flywheel... you get my drift? Modular is the best way to go, but If I came back, I would use T/W. Unless someone else was sponsoring the ride.


I would think that Robert has enough laying round to cover that. I know I do.

[RHecox]

Since when have you bit your tongue?

Anyway does anyone have word on when we will get final rules released? I don’t think we will have time to test our new Brodix/Systemax combo if they wait too much longer. With the new t-56 it's like a whole new car.


I was told the rules would be out no later than the second Tuesday of next week. :D

I can't wait to try out my new CBR929 Golf cart. It's like a whole ne golf cart!

Burnout contest anyone?

[GeneHindman]

I would think that Robert has enough laying round to cover that. I know I do.
Robert very well may have alot or most of that around his shop... but that sure doesn't make it mine or that I could use it without paying for it.

[Cobra X]

Anyway does anyone have word on when we will get final rules released?

March 2, 2007

[Ian Mullane]

I'm just going off memory, but when Tom Payn won the championship in 2000, he was using GT-40P heads and any gas, etc. etc. I was using GT-40 heads. The following year, we all bought aluminum heads. You may be right, I just don't know why none of us were using them if they were legal.
sorry man, for some reason I thought Z-MAN=Randy. I stand corrected.


Combustion chamber volume limits on the aluminum heads. Tom went through alot of head gaskets that season.

[ET/MPH]

There must be a few more people out there that haven't voted on this?

[Green]

After purchasing a top 10 finishing PS car to run in '07, I would like to see the weights left alone. (just my 2 cents worth)

[clmrhayden]

After purchasing a top 10 finishing PS car to run in '07, I would like to see the weights left alone. (just my 2 cents worth)

Are you referring to Gary's car if so are Paul and him going to be helping you out this year I will miss those guys.

[Green]

Are you referring to Gary's car if so are Paul and him going to be helping you out this year I will miss those guys.


Yes I am talking about Gary's car. Hope to get insight from Gary and Paul this year.(and anyone else who's willing to help)
Gary's a great guy--he told me he will come to some races if he can make it, and that they would help in any way they could.

[qwiknotch]

Hey Gene,

Tom did run g40p heads and from what I remember, he was running a c10 mix of fuel and he also had the million dollar Lentech.

when are you coming back, man... I remember talking to the wee hours at Hooters in St. Louis. hahaha

Is there anyone running Speed Density?

Hopefully I will see you in Indy this year...


Damon
WFC Tech

I wish I lived back east, I would run P/S without even thinking twice..

[GeneHindman]

Hey Gene,

Tom did run g40p heads and from what I remember, he was running a c10 mix of fuel and he also had the million dollar Lentech.

when are you coming back, man... I remember talking to the wee hours at Hooters in St. Louis. hahaha

Is there anyone running Speed Density?

Hopefully I will see you in Indy this year...


Damon
WFC Tech

I wish I lived back east, I would run P/S without even thinking twice..
Damon.... How's it going man. Last time I heard from you, you was eating wings...lol
I don't know if I'll be back on a serious run for the Championship again. The cost out weighs the return, alot more now than it did when fuel was 1.45 a gallon. I have a vacation week planned the week of WFC in Indy, but P/S no longer exist there, so I don't know. Being more centrally located, you all should bring P/S back with NMRA rules, instead of the rules that it ended with. The class went with FFW S/W rules and the field went with it also.
Hope to see you guys soon.

[qwiknotch]

I'd like to see that happen, the problem is that we kept getting smaller and smaller car counts and they had to make the decision to remove it.

If we knew there would be a good turnout again, I am sure the powers that be could be persuaded. Both Robert and I loved that class and it was a shame when it came down to only 3 cars showing, especially when you have so many that show at NMRA.

As of right now, there is only a handful of head-up classes. they even got rid of Hot Street because of lack of counts.

Last year seemed to work rather well, we will have to see what happens when the rules come out. I am not sure what they have in store yet for classes.

I think I might set the car up anyway for Pure Street and run a 10.60 index class out here, or put a set of drag radials on it and run another series out here. They are thinking the class will only run low 10's but with 310inches and a pure street type setup, I would only have to weigh 2480 and it should run in the 9's....

[4eyedfreak85GT]

i hope my motor will break out of the 12s this year! i wish they had some kinda handicap for me or if somehow the tech thinks my car is full of **** we can work something out. thats cuz i always get the worst of luck and my car is never fast.

[Ian Mullane]

This is heads up racing. You have to make your own luck.:)