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View Full Version : My take on the new rules....


Justin Burcham
07-15-2007, 11:33 AM
Here’s my opinion, NMRA rules committee screwed up plain and simple. What are/were they thinking? Let’s take a quick look at the combos.

2V 11.42-current rules-GA
pushrod-11.46-current rules-GA
4V 11.46 current rules w/traction-loc and 3.90 gear (Shawn BG 06)------------2007/11.53 W/4:10 GEAR AND SPOOL (MAKES SENSE HUH?)
*****Also-Not in great air of BG!!******yet



It’s funny how this reminds me so much of the Cosby era. It’s not the combination that gets ruled, but “whose car” is running the combination.

If you took Shawn’s car with the current rules, it would be well in the 40’s by now w/ 4:10 gear and spool, and with this rule would get back to his 11.30 performances on a regular basis. You guys can’t sit here and say a freakin’ 3400lb car will not respond when going from a 4:10 to a 4:88, seriously guys think about it!!!!!! So you take your stock heavy ass Mach 1 to the track with 3.55’s and then put a 4:10 in, how much would that pick it up? Maybe 3-4 tenths, but it won’t make a difference from a 4:10 to a 4:88??? C’mon!!!!

That’s right Jeff I said it, you bring a “street” car to the racetrack. The rules get swayed in your favor when you have been right beside us all year long. It would all be different in the win column, had it not been for a clutch slip or a few tire revolutions, and I truly mean that. You might say so what, but if you took the weight of all the “street” parts on your car and put them over the rear tires you might not have the “traction” issues you speak of. Please tell me you don’t agree and that’s why all the drag radial and other heads up “racecars” have steel hoods, ABS brakes, A/C, stereos and Corbeau seats. I think I heard Booze jamming out to his new Sony cd player in the lanes last race…. What parts have the 4V’s broken so many of this year that necessitates a rule change? If the combo needs to be adjusted for parts breakage and a boost in ET why not use NMRA’s favorite tool of weight??????????? I’d rather see 75lbs off the combo which will help “parts breakage” and give ET help. Did any 4V’s break anything in eliminations that caused them to lose the race?????? Just wondering??

You said yourself at an event that we were all running 60’s, “it doesn’t matter if it bogs or spins, it runs the same ET” or something to that effect. I do know that in round 1 against Denny, John Paulk spun and he ran a 12.0, little off pace from his 11.57, so we have to make near perfect runs/launches to even be beside you. The pushrod cars have to 60ft, they are not driving around anyone…Bring a racecar to the event and then we can judge the combos correctly. If the combo still needs to be adjusted, take weight off the car/combo, it sucks racing @3400lbs and a weight change could have been so much more predictable for the NMRA. I know the cc rule didin't affect the combo that much, maybe 5-7hp,maybe. I don’t envy you, trying to 60ft a 3400+lb car. It’s not easy; it is far easier with less weight. My main gripe is, that at any time you could say, ”time to pull some weight off the nose” and get rid of some creature comforts, do more testing and voila, traction!! The car would/could be more consistent in the 60ft and you would be able to better use the 117mph hp under the hood. Shawn did. It’s not like you would consult with the NMRA in regards to these changes and they would take the gear away, correct? There is no disputing that the top 2 cars with the other combos are strictly racecars and retain no street equipment. There is no regard for “cruising needs.” This is not a shot at you, just speaking my mind on the combo.

This season so far has been some damn close and the best racing I’ve ever seen in F/S. Close racing even among teammates, not afraid to put another car on the trailer!!

I was very optimistic a couple weeks ago about the “potential” of the pushrod combo. That was before we spent $6000 and rented an engine dyno for 3 days testing 4 different cams and a new state-of-the-art shortblock and picked up 1 hp, that’s right guys 1 hp. Now I do believe the new engine will accelerate faster due to lightweight components, but the combo is pretty much maxed out, not that the 4V is not in a similar situation. We have been running this same combo for 7 years now and we have tried and tested mostly everything we can. There might be hundredths here and there from different items or driving, but the days of a tenth pickup because we had the “wrong” cam or heads, will not happen. Quote from Rich Groh: “these heads have the best flow numbers I have ever seen”. So what can we do? We can’t put a different port program on the heads! A couple F/S and P/S champs got together and picked 4 different cams and they are all within 1 hp of each other. We have tons of experience, the best/trickest parts money can buy, and we’ve pretty much hit a brick wall in performance. Looking for suggestions…

It was the 2V combination that worried me, now both combos will put the pushrod back in a solid third, based on performance. The 2V is another story that has yet to be told. That combo will evolve into a good one.

The racing this year was decided by the drivers and the chassis calls made before the rounds, not the combinations. I still don’t understand WTF the 6 members on the rules committee were thinking. Jeff asks for a 4:30 gear and YOU GUYS FIGURE "WHAT THE HELL IF WE LET ANY GEAR IN MAYBE WE WILL GET AN EXTRA RACE ENTRY AT THE GATE"$$$????!!!!!!! I mean what else makes sense when you look at the performance/et/mph of the combos this year????? Remember the whole "weight" thing,use it!

This is nothing personal against anyone who races a particular combo, I respect anyone who works hard at heads up racing, traveling, testing and having the balls to go heads up. But let the racing be decided on the track, not around a ****in’ table over coffee. We ****, eat and breathe these class rules and racing, and you guys decide our fate in your “spare” time, or does any member of the committee work “full time” at class monitoring and making rules. I DON’T THINK SO!!!! Stop ****ing with the rules NMRA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I do have a solution, put me on the committee, I watch every single heads up car go down the track from F/S to SSO. I don’t have to worry about checking for loose ballast or how many spectators/cars come through the gate or when my next episode of Power TV is due!!! Please remove your heads from where the sun doesn’t shine and fix this.......

Stay tuned for my R/S 2V rant…… ;)


I guess my Buddy Club membership might expire after this one.:eek:

Bob Cosby
07-28-2007, 07:02 PM
Just got around to reading this one.

You're definately out of the club now, Justin! ;)

SANDMAN
07-30-2007, 04:41 AM
Don't ya miss all of this Bob? :D

Ian Mullane
07-30-2007, 09:14 AM
Don't ya miss all of this Bob? :D


This is nothing. Go to the R/S or D/R forums if you wanna see some action:rolleyes:

How are ay Bob? Making any noise with ole Whine Maker yet?

SANDMAN
08-14-2007, 07:05 PM
right from Atco
no words just data.

http://www.kenshell.com/atco-best.jpg

KenB
08-15-2007, 05:03 AM
right from Atco
no words just data.

http://www.kenshell.com/atco-best.jpg


Cool, all 3 combos within about .1 The rules have come along way. Remember the days when the spread was more like .5?

SANDMAN
08-15-2007, 12:51 PM
yeah its cool. cool when your combo is the top dog.
like every year.

KenB
08-15-2007, 02:03 PM
yeah its cool. cool when your combo is the top dog.
like every year.


Uh, every year? If you definition of every is 1 year. Then yes, every year.

SANDMAN
08-15-2007, 02:20 PM
ok

I thought modular 4v's won 2004, 2005, 2006
And this year it will be a 4v or a 2v modular.

KenB
08-15-2007, 02:41 PM
ok

I thought modular 4v's won 2004, 2005, 2006
And this year it will be a 4v or a 2v modular.

Well you said 'your' combo. Our combo is a 2v not a 4v. If you are referring to me tuning Shawn's car then yes, I have tuned the record holder for the last 3 years. Come to think about it, maybe it's not the combo. ;)

At this point Steve has his work cut out for him as far as the championship goes. If anyone should be upset about the rules change, it should be us. The combo of the gear for the 4v and the weight on us took the championship right out of our pocket. Not saying we didn't shoot ourselves in the foot on many occasions this year, but the rule change really fucked us more than anyone if you think about it.

SANDMAN
08-15-2007, 04:31 PM
I meant tuning, crewing. Maybe it is you! lol
I dont see anyone getting past Steve and Jeff this year.
Maybe Eric and Brian.

Steve's time will come real soon. He is over do.

First we had the Cosby Comet, now its the Farmers Rocket. :D


Well you said 'your' combo. Our combo is a 2v not a 4v. If you are referring to me tuning Shawn's car then yes, I have tuned the record holder for the last 3 years. Come to think about it, maybe it's not the combo. ;)

At this point Steve has his work cut out for him as far as the championship goes. If anyone should be upset about the rules change, it should be us. The combo of the gear for the 4v and the weight on us took the championship right out of our pocket. Not saying we didn't shoot ourselves in the foot on many occasions this year, but the rule change really fucked us more than anyone if you think about it.

ISSUES
09-01-2007, 11:32 AM
First we had the Cosby Comet, now its the Farmers Rocket. :D

didnt a movie just come out on DVD about the "Farmers Rocket" where Billy Bob Thorton plays Farmer Steve? :D

Ian Mullane
09-02-2007, 09:24 PM
I meant tuning, crewing. Maybe it is you! lol
I dont see anyone getting past Steve and Jeff this year.
Maybe Eric and Brian.



Keep your eyes open. There's an ole dinosuar from Maryland thats fuuuulyinnn!


BG is gonna be nuts!

SANDMAN
09-03-2007, 07:27 AM
That pushrod is flying but it's not enough. :(

Brandon Alsept
09-03-2007, 07:33 AM
Give them a few more passes with that car and I bet they can run with the 2V. They were off in the 60 a touch and once they get this combo to work like the old one I see some 30s out of it. I guess BG will tell the tale;)

SANDMAN
09-03-2007, 07:46 AM
And the Farmers rocket will just run a few 20's by then.


Give them a few more passes with that car and I bet they can run with the 2V. They were off in the 60 a touch and once they get this combo to work like the old one I see some 30s out of it. I guess BG will tell the tale;)

SANDMAN
09-03-2007, 07:56 AM
just figured I would post some info.

http://www.kenshell.com/OHIO-ATCO2.JPG

KenB
09-03-2007, 08:59 AM
just figured I would post some info.

http://www.kenshell.com/OHIO-ATCO2.JPG


But we can play the game too. ;)



Tommy has a new combo and there's alot of POTENTIAL left. :D
That was their first shot at it, it can only get better. :eek:


Looks like the rules are set. When was the last time 3 different combos all had a shot at the championship going into BG? Hell, when was the last time 3 different combos in ANY class had a shot at winning the championship going into BG?

SANDMAN
09-03-2007, 11:33 AM
I want you guys (you and steve) to take it all.
really.

your right, the pushrod is new in f/s.

so you guys are about a year or so in with a 2v in f/s?
cant wait to see it run 11.2's when its sorted out.

good luck

KenB
09-03-2007, 11:37 AM
I want you guys (you and steve) to take it all.
really.

your right, the pushrod is new in f/s.

so you guys are about a year or so in with a 2v in f/s?
cant wait to see it run 11.2's when its sorted out.

good luck


Ah but there is more to the story. Tommy was running a new combo, figure it out.

Shawn Johnson
09-03-2007, 12:06 PM
4vs need to loose a 100#s

5.0Ls ?

Tommy G.
09-03-2007, 04:38 PM
4vs need to loose a 100#s

5.0Ls ?
He went a .42 in Atco. We've only been a .44. It would not have run a .30 period.

f/s 4valve
09-03-2007, 09:30 PM
He went a .42 in Atco. We've only been a .44. It would not have run a .30 period.
right on tominator tell shawn to to stfu and get back to real street

Tommy G.
09-04-2007, 06:39 AM
right on tominator tell shawn to to stfu and get back to real street

It's all about let's give the championship away. We worked our butts off to play catch up. Now let's all go to BG and PLAY BALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ian Mullane
09-04-2007, 07:17 AM
Just goes to show the NMRA wasn't giving anything away with the gear rule. Just took a little motivation for you to figure out how to go faster. Lucky you figured it out in time to stay in the hunt. Nice work.

Looks like you guys found a couple tenths. 11.51 with a 1.73 60 ft:eek: Can we get an official retraction from Justin on the original post.:p :D

"You said yourself at an event that we were all running 60’s, “it doesn’t matter if it bogs or spins, it runs the same ET” or something to that effect. I do know that in round 1 against Denny, John Paulk spun and he ran a 12.0, little off pace from his 11.57, so we have to make near perfect runs/launches to even be beside you. The pushrod cars have to 60ft, they are not driving around anyone…" Justin


Hell his whole post is now null and void cept maybe the 2V part. I think Jeff even removed his AC after that one.:D

Tommy G.
09-04-2007, 08:09 AM
Just goes to show the NMRA wasn't giving anything away with the gear rule. Just took a little motivation for you to figure out how to go faster. Lucky you figured it out in time to stay in the hunt. Nice work.

Looks like you guys found a couple tenths. 11.51 with a 1.73 60 ft:eek: Can we get an official retraction from Justin on the original post.:p :D

"You said yourself at an event that we were all running 60’s, “it doesn’t matter if it bogs or spins, it runs the same ET” or something to that effect. I do know that in round 1 against Denny, John Paulk spun and he ran a 12.0, little off pace from his 11.57, so we have to make near perfect runs/launches to even be beside you. The pushrod cars have to 60ft, they are not driving around anyone…" Justin


Hell his whole post is now null and void cept maybe the 2V part. I think Jeff even removed his AC after that one.:D

We're not even going to let you guys tell us the 4v needs more help. Alittle more hard work should help out. That's all we've been aloud to do all year. Also Paulk missed 4th gear.

Ian Mullane
09-04-2007, 09:03 AM
We're not even going to let you guys tell us the 4v needs more help. Alittle more hard work should help out. That's all we've been aloud to do all year. Also Paulk missed 4th gear.

That part about Jonathan was from Justins original post above. I'm just not very good with the quote thingy.

Steve's got the upper hand rignt now but you and Jeff are close enough to make it interesting. Closest it's been for awhile. 5 winners in 6 races and three different drivers all running different combo's in the hunt for the championship. Doesn't get much better than this. Wish Doc was in BG to announce.

Tommy G.
09-04-2007, 09:08 AM
Steve's got the upper hand rignt now but you and Jeff are close enough to make it interesting. Closest it's been for awhile. 5 winners in 6 races and three different drivers all running different combo's in the hunt for the championship. Doesn't get much better than this. Wish Doc was in BG to announce.

Holy Crap we agree on something :eek:

Ian Mullane
09-04-2007, 10:15 AM
Holy Crap we agree on something :eek:
I'm not totally irrational:D

KenB
09-04-2007, 10:23 AM
Best setup for the World Finals I can remember in FS, maybe any class. Would be interesting to look back and see. I know in FS it's been all about domination since I've been around. First BG I went to was Mike trying for the perfect season. And it's been pretty much like that with a different person in the drivers seat every year.

I glad it went down like this. (Not sure if Tommy and Jeff are :eek: )

Let's just hope that everyone shows to make this a battle at the track rather than car count eliminating one of the three players.

Tommy G.
09-04-2007, 10:28 AM
Best setup for the World Finals I can remember in FS, maybe any class. Would be interesting to look back and see. I know in FS it's been all about domination since I've been around. First BG I went to was Mike trying for the perfect season. And it's been pretty much like that with a different person in the drivers seat every year.

I glad it went down like this. (Not sure if Tommy and Jeff are :eek: )

Let's just hope that everyone shows to make this a battle at the track rather than car count eliminating one of the three players.

What's wrong with an 8 car field ? ;)

Ian Mullane
09-04-2007, 10:43 AM
2001 was fairly close between Rich, Robin, Bob and Justin but nothing like this. Justin dominated in 2002 and you know the rest from there.


8 car hell, I heard there was going to be at least 17:eek:

f/s 4valve
09-04-2007, 11:37 AM
2001 was fairly close between Rich, Robin, Bob and Justin but nothing like this. Justin dominated in 2002 and you know the rest from there.


8 car hell, I heard there was going to be at least 17:eek:
carlos called me this morning theres 10 cars coming from new jersey

SANDMAN
09-04-2007, 11:41 AM
give or take

carlos called me this morning theres 10 cars coming from new jersey

Tommy G.
09-04-2007, 11:45 AM
carlos called me this morning theres 10 cars coming from new jersey
So basically 2 cars from Jersey. Usually those guys never show :rolleyes: HAHAHA

Ian Mullane
09-04-2007, 11:48 AM
So basically 2 cars from Jersey. Usually those guys never show :rolleyes: HAHAHA

Carlos would never miss BG. He has his worst luck there.

Ian Mullane
09-04-2007, 11:50 AM
Steve, you may have the QUICKEST pass in F/S history but not the FASTEST (yet). 121 baby. I gotta hold onto something.:(

Tommy G.
09-04-2007, 11:55 AM
Carlos would never miss BG. He has his worst luck there.
Carlos is 1 of the 2

Ian Mullane
09-04-2007, 11:58 AM
Carlos is 1 of the 2

No way Ken Cook is coming. He's to busy with the live timing results.:)

Tommy G.
09-04-2007, 12:25 PM
No way Ken Cook is coming. He's to busy with the live timing results.:)

No doubt. I don't know him but does he race?

SANDMAN
09-04-2007, 12:29 PM
Whooohoooo
Live Timing Rocks !!! Works great with my I Phone.

I'll be at BG

Carlos Said......... ;)

KenB
09-04-2007, 01:09 PM
Steve, you may have the QUICKEST pass in F/S history but not the FASTEST (YET). 121 baby. I gotta hold onto something.:(


:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Shawn Johnson
09-04-2007, 02:07 PM
right on tominator tell shawn to to stfu and get back to real street


Steve you know as well as others that I will ot be 100% out off FS for a long time and maybe more involved next year... That is like tell Justin to stay out...


From Tommy
It's all about let's give the championship away. We worked our butts off to play catch up. Now let's all go to BG and PLAY BALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I said the 4vs need 100#s off to run with the 2v as they are running right now.... The NMRA will not be changing anything for the finals... They will be I'm sure for 2008...


From Tommy
We're not even going to let you guys tell us the 4v needs more help. Alittle more hard work should help out.

So now your saying the 4v just need to work harder...wow..

From what I here you guys changed heads and took some weight out... Will you give the 4v some other heads to try?...

Tommy G.
09-04-2007, 02:44 PM
From what I here you guys changed heads and took some weight out... Will you give the 4v some other heads to try?...

What you hear may not always be correct, we refined a few things and tested every chance the track was open and even rented the track. So I think everyone should test every possible chance they get.

SANDMAN
09-04-2007, 03:07 PM
Took weight out?
How did they pass tech?

Either they had a aod or e7 heads?

Tommy G.
09-04-2007, 03:31 PM
Took weight out?
How did they pass tech?

Either they had a aod or e7 heads?

It's all hear say.

f/s 4valve
09-04-2007, 04:03 PM
tommy went on nitris system diet oops i mean nutri system sorry about the typing error.

SANDMAN
09-04-2007, 04:32 PM
I told carlos he needed that there nutri system. :D

tommy went on nitris system diet oops i mean nutri system sorry about the typing error.

nos84gt
09-04-2007, 05:22 PM
Steve you know as well as others that I will ot be 100% out off FS for a long time and maybe more involved next year... That is like tell Justin to stay out...


From Tommy
It's all about let's give the championship away. We worked our butts off to play catch up. Now let's all go to BG and PLAY BALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I said the 4vs need 100#s off to run with the 2v as they are running right now.... The NMRA will not be changing anything for the finals... They will be I'm sure for 2008...


From Tommy
We're not even going to let you guys tell us the 4v needs more help. Alittle more hard work should help out.

So now your saying the 4v just need to work harder...wow..

From what I here you guys changed heads and took some weight out... Will you give the 4v some other heads to try?...

I was going to stay out of this....BUT!!!! Jeff told me at FL this year he had a hard time getting to car to be consistent with the 4.10 gear....You know what??? Work HARDER!!!!!! GET IT TO WORK!!! JPC got Tommy's car to work within the current rules without having to ask for rules change!!! Saying the 4V needs 100lbs is CRAZY!!!! Maybe 100lbs added to them!!!! Along with 200 to the 2V!!!!

Shawn Johnson
09-04-2007, 06:58 PM
I was going to stay out of this....BUT!!!! Jeff told me at FL this year he had a hard time getting to car to be consistent with the 4.10 gear....You know what??? Work HARDER!!!!!! GET IT TO WORK!!! JPC got Tommy's car to work within the current rules without having to ask for rules change!!! Saying the 4V needs 100lbs is CRAZY!!!! Maybe 100lbs added to them!!!! Along with 200 to the 2V!!!!

John... you take a 3400lb car with a drag radial, tire a 410 gear, a mod motor that only likes high RPM and a diaphragm clutch and make it be consistent... when that happens you will be correct and I'll be wrong...
4v have what to work on to run with the 2vs...? you think they should have the 410 gear back... then what WORK will get them to a 30 pass...please tell me......


5.0L and 2vs can try different cams.... heads... headers...... cams and headers are new to the FS program..... what is new for the 4vs...... oh ya they lost the heads we had and had to go backwards in HP and torque.... now you want to mandate a gear so they can not test anything different there.....


It wasn’t that long ago all 5.0L were saying they needed something in the rules…. Now they don’t the 2V is still out ahead of the pack and the 4v is still the bad guy… well guess what… we are not using the 5.0L as a measuring stick are we… we are using a the 2v… the 2v WILL run in the 20s with the current rules…(Steve ran a 32 in what air conditions?)…. Steve will probably show it in BG……. 4v will not run a 20 with the rules as they are… there are only TWO 4Vs in the class right now… ONE is running up front… what the heck are you afraid of…. No one is going to build a 4V over a 2V for FS anymore…. 2V is running at the front and its less costly to build….. Jeff will be taking both of his 4Vs out after this season… then what….if they get 100lbs off is there a bunch of 4Vs out there waiting to jump in the mix….I don not think so…if there is one.. I have a good motor I can sell you…

I will be the first to predict that JPC will be running a 2V in Tommy’s car for the BG finals…

SANDMAN
09-04-2007, 07:13 PM
per live timing for the 11.32 pass :D

9/1/2007 12:23

***Station KVTA Temperature 73.40°
***Barometric Pressure 30.24 Humidity 47.00%
***Relative Air Density 95.23% Effective Altitude 1669.60 ft

nos84gt
09-04-2007, 07:53 PM
I will be the first to predict that JPC will be running a 2V in Tommy’s car for the BG finals…


YEP!!! A 2V 5.0L pushrod!!!!!

Tommy G.
09-05-2007, 06:28 AM
YEP!!! A 2V 5.0L pushrod!!!!!

Exactly, there will not be a mod motor is the blue car. But it's cooking up a modular butt whippin'. I smell a Pushrod back on top :eek: We shall see it's only a few weeks away. The wheels are turning boys, get to work!

nos84gt
09-05-2007, 12:09 PM
Exactly, there will not be a mod motor is the blue car. But it's cooking up a modular but whippin'. I smell a Pushrod back on top :eek: We shall see it's only a few weeks away. The wheels are turning boys, get to work!

There are working, on rules revisions.....:p

SANDMAN
09-05-2007, 01:46 PM
Off and on since 2001 in F/S.

No doubt. I don't know him but does he race?