Incon Twin Turbos in DR [Archive] - NMRA Ford Nationals Series Forum

Derek50

09-12-2002, 03:15 PM

I wanted to know if the decision to make the Incon Twin Turbo kits illegal for DR in 2003 was still going to go through? The last time I checked it was not set in stone yet. I know that originally the decision was made because of a lack of racers using the TT kits but I wanted to see if this was still the case.

The reason that I'm asking is because I would really like to run an Incon TT kit in DR in 2003 and on. I saw a racer in Bradenton that was running an Incon TT kit and did quite well. I've also talked to Jake Lamotta at Lamotta Performance and he said that he is working on the development of a TT kit for the 4.6 engine that is based on the Incon TT kit. (Parts from the same source that Incon used.) He's already working on a car with a mod motor and the TT kit and would like to race it in the DR class in 2003. He also mentioned some or his customers are building mod motor TT cars. So I think that there should be an increase in TT use and that we could be successful at it.

As much as I would like to see this class opened up to all twin turbo street kits, I also know that doing so could be a tech nightmare. My hope is that since the Incon Kit has already been a part of the DR class that there would not be an issue in keeping it legal in the class. Furthermore, since there is a good chance that the kit will start becoming available to the 4.6 guys, the use of the twin turbo kits could increase.

Also, if the demand for a 5.0 kit is still there then Jake Lamotta will also consider producing those as well.

Let me know what you all think about this.

Thanks,

Derek

thebigdaddy

09-12-2002, 05:26 PM

This is the problem with the Incon kit.

The Incon kit is not being produced any longer the support for the kit was very low, so it was better to just remove it from the rules for 2003 all together.. Also there were to many complaints about incon not delivering the product to customers. The decision not to allow Incon Kits in the class was consider by the majority of the drag radial racers at the time the desicion was made.. Plus it was a decision made to stop a potential problem with other twin turbo kits being used in the class.

The BD

Derek50

09-12-2002, 08:44 PM

Hey BD, Thanks for the response. I would like to reply to your statement, not to start an argument but to open a debate in an attempt to keep my power adder of choice legal in DR.

Right now the only all Ford racing venue where a twin turbo mustang can race is in FFW "True Street" and NMRA "Drag Radial". In True Street you get three runs and then you average your times. The fastest average wins, then the lowest 10 second car wins something, 11 second car wins something.... But there is no Heads Up/Eliminations racing for TT cars except in DR. If marketed correctly this will bring some added attention to the DR class. More attention=more racers=more fans=more money.

The Incon kit is not being produced any longer the support for the kit was very low, so it was better to just remove it from the rules for 2003 all together.. Also there were to many complaints about Incon not delivering the product to customers.

Incon does seem to be out of business. (I only say seem because I have not seen an official statement from Incon.) Incon's business problems are what caused the delivery problems. Which in turn caused the support for the Incon TT kits to drop. However, I think this will change if the TT kit is brought back into production, which when I talked to Jack Lamotta today is his plan. My point here is that while Incon as a company may be dead, the Incon TT kit may be in the process of being reborn.

(Man that sounded good, the Phoenix TT system. You listening Jake? Royalties Jake, Royalties. :D )

I also think that the kit will come back because even with Incon's problems, the Incon TT kit is still arguably one of the best engineered TT street kits produced.

Plus it was a decision made to stop a potential problem with other twin turbo kits being used in the class.

I personally do not have any problem with letting any twin turbo kit race in DR as long as they can be tech'ed and competed against fairly. I will, however, leave this debate for those running other TT kits.

Hey, I know that I'm fighting an up hill battle but I think that it's worth it. Tell me what it would take to keep the Incon TT kit legal. How may TT cars would you want at each race to change your mind? If it's too late for 2003 then let some of the cars run during qualifying and do some exhibition passes during eliminations and find out what the fans would think about letting us compete. Let me know what we would need to do and I will do my best to see that we meet it.

If you want the DR class to grow, well here we are.

Thanks,

Derek50

pwrhws

09-13-2002, 12:09 PM

Derek, I am with you. This is actually my first posat here so excuse any ignorance of rules, I am only lurking to decide what may be a good class for me.

I am in the process of putting a car together and unsure what route to go.
I actually planned on a true street car simply because the rules of all other classes would not allow my combo.
(stock suspension, 393, single pt88)
I would consider DR, but I do not think the rules would allow it.
I am unsure why though. If they want to make a DR class advance, they will have to let the power go up. I am aware that some carsare on the edge of safe but something needs to be figured to keep everyone happy.
Making everyone happy may appear to be giving everyone their own class.

Maybe just make it straight up gangster style, gambler racing, Go rattle someone else in the pits, and see if they'll go for a couple hundred bucks at a time. No e.t. on the board, just a win light.
That would be a cool class. Just watch out for the bullies.

JHenke

09-13-2002, 02:16 PM

Sorry, but if you guys are in the process of building cars, there are class rules to follow. You build your cars to suit the class. The rules dont get tailor-made for newcomers.

Dont worry about the class growing, we get about 22-23 cars per race and have plenty of people interested in running the class. As far as power increasing, you'd better run 9.60 or better to make top 16, and run in the 8's to be in the top 5.

Turbo and supercharged cars are limited to 360ci. Turbos are limited to 77mm. Unfortunately twins are not popular and w/ no major backing by a sponsor, will be cut loose.

Derek50

09-13-2002, 02:27 PM

pwrhws, thanks for the support, but what I'm trying to do is keep a power adder legal in a class where it is currently legal. I'm not trying to make something legal that would raise the power level for the class. In fact, I think that DR is already starting to get too fast for what it was first intended to be.

General Description - Drag Radial was designed for street driven, D.O.T. Radial equipped small-block ‘79-up Fox-chassis Fords. 325mm maximum measured tire width. Stock-type suspension only. Did I think that with a description like this that these cars would be running low 9's and high 8's? Hell no. Are they doing it? Hell ya, and I think that the guys (and some galls) that are doing it are incredible. I truly think that I would like to take the challenge of trying to build a car and racing against them. My only issue is that I want to do it with an Incon Twin Turbo kit.

Do I think that DR needs bigger superchargers? NO
Do I think that DR should allow race only heads? NO
Do I think that NMRA should adjust the rules to keep the racing fair? Yes

If the nitrous guys are too fast then limit the amount of nitrous that they can use. If the turbo cars are too quick then add some weight. Does the class need to go faster in order to advance? No, I don't think so.

Hey pwrhws, what is "single pt88"? What is it about your car that you think would make it not legal for DR? If you're building your car for a class couldn't you build it to the DR rules? This is what I'm trying to do and then I can still run in the True Street class.

Derek

Draggin3

09-13-2002, 02:38 PM

Originally posted by Derek50
pwrhws,
Do I think that DR needs bigger superchargers? NO
Do I think that DR should allow race only heads? NO
Do I think that NMRA should adjust the rules to keep the racing fair? Yes

If the nitrous guys are too fast then limit the amount of nitrous that they can use. If the turbo cars are too quick then add some weight. Does the class need to go faster in order to advance? No, I don't think so.
Derek

You must not have done your homework before making the above statements. With all do respect just listen to the founder (Big Daddy) of the DR class.

Phreakfree

09-13-2002, 02:51 PM

the thing with class heads up racing is the rules can't be made to make everyone happy. and in order to have a class car, you have to build it for that class. we can't just change the rules to fit some more people in the class. if you want to race DR, which would be great, build a car for it. sorry, but in my opinion, thats just the way it works.
I think DR is one of the best nmra classes maybe even the best in my opinion, I'm very happy with the way the rules are, things could be evened up some more for the supercharger guys, but overall, i think it's a great class and for the most part I'd like to see it left alone, which I think would then bring up the car count.

Derek50

09-13-2002, 02:59 PM

Originally posted by JHenke
Sorry, but if you guys are in the process of building cars, there are class rules to follow. You build your cars to suit the class. The rules don't get tailor-made for newcomers.

JHenke, I agree with you. I'm trying to build my car to the DR rules. Unfortunately I bought my Incon TT kit before the decision was made to drop them from the class. If I have to, I may sell the kit and build a single turbo setup, but I would really like to have a TT car. You could say that it's been a dream of mine. I also think that the race fans would like to see TT cars race.

Unfortunately twins are not popular and w/ no major backing by a sponsor, will be cut loose.

Do you mean not popular with racers? If this is what you mean then I agree that it is unfortunate. As for the backing by a sponsor. Do you mean sponsorship for racers or to the racing organization? What kind of sponsorship do you think would be needed and in what amounts? I'll see what I can do there. :D

Thanks,

Derek

Derek50

09-13-2002, 03:02 PM

Originally posted by Draggin3
You must not have done your homework before making the above statements. With all do respect just listen to the founder (Big Daddy) of the DR class.

Actually, I have e-mailed BD and we agree that race blowers and race heads are not needed in DR.

Homework. A+ :D

Derek50

09-13-2002, 03:05 PM

Originally posted by Phreakfree
the thing with class heads up racing is the rules can't be made to make everyone happy. and in order to have a class car, you have to build it for that class. we can't just change the rules to fit some more people in the class. if you want to race DR, which would be great, build a car for it. sorry, but in my opinion, thats just the way it works.
I think DR is one of the best nmra classes maybe even the best in my opinion, I'm very happy with the way the rules are, things could be evened up some more for the supercharger guys, but overall, i think it's a great class and for the most part I'd like to see it left alone, which I think would then bring up the car count.

I could not agree with you more. Keep the class rule as they are and do some tweaking to even things up for the supercharger guys. Oh, and I mean keep the TT legal for 2003. Don't forget that they are currently legal for 2002, so I'm even more conservative.

93MustangLX306

09-13-2002, 03:09 PM

Was the car/driver you talking about Christina Eldert? I know tat LaMotta's did build her a Mod powered 85/86 svo mustang with a TT set up on it.

Scott K

Spence

09-13-2002, 03:31 PM

Originally posted by Derek50
Don't forget that they are currently legal for 2002, so I'm even more conservative.

Guess you better hurry up and finish the car, you only got 2 weeks before its Illegal for DR..........J/K
Like Jhenke said, this class is NOT hurting for participation and I dont see it fading away anytime soon either, this decision to delete the Incon kits from the line up was a majority thing made last year and hasnt been a secret, this is the problem with building a car over a long period of time, the rules change and unfortunatly alot of people suffer because of it, I have been there many times in the past. I only remember seeing 1 incon car this year, and the only reason it was there was becuase the race was local to him probably. Good luck with what ever you decide.

pwrhws

09-13-2002, 04:27 PM

Derek, I must say that I would run the class if my cars complied to the rules.
Unfortunatly I do not have the funds to do the neccessary updates to my car annually, That is why I may just keep the true street plan.
not only can I not afford to keep my car within the boundries of the rules, I do not think that I can afford to make it to all the events to be competitive in the points.

I dont understand why they want to eliminate the incon equipped cars. It was said that the manufactures do not support that product anymore, Who cares- Is that combo likly to make alot more hp?

They don't x-out other stuff that isn't made anymore. Do the rules not allow shock or suspension or maybe trans components because the manufacturer dosn't support that particular racing class.

I would have to say, that makes me a bit confused.

No flames, I am just curious. And I appriciate the shows that you guys put on.

thebigdaddy

09-13-2002, 08:36 PM

THAT'S FUNNY NOW EVERYBODY KNOWS THAT I BELIEVE THAT THE BLOWERS CARS NEED HELP...

LISTEN GUYS THIS CLASS IS NOT LIKE A BASEBALL CAP 1 SIZE FITS ALL. THE DR CLASS AND THE GUYS THAT R IN IT HAVE BEEN FIGHTING FOR EQUALITY SINCE THE INCEPTION OF IT...EVERY YEAR WE GET BETTER AND BETTER TO HAVING A EQUAL PLAYING FIELD.... TWIN TURBO'S WOULD AT THIS TIME CREATE MORE PROBLEMS IN THE CLASS..AND GUESS WHO WOULD LOOSE...INCON TT... WHAT I MEAN IS JUST ANSWER THIS QUESTION FOR ME. LET'S SAY THAT INCON TT ARE LEGAL. NOW U HAVE A GUY SAYING HOW COME INCON TWIN TURBOS R LEGAL AND MAKE CARTECH KIT ISN'T... WHAT WOULD BE YOUR ANSWER?
BECAUSE IF TWIN TURBO'S BECOME LEGAL, I WILL FIGHT FOR ALL TWIN TURBO KITS TO BE LEGAL... THAN WHAT DO U DO FOR THE SUPERCHARGERS CARS OR NOS CARS...ALL IT CAUSES IS A BIG SNOWBALL EFFECT AND STARTS TO COMPLICATE MATTTERS.

FOR ALL OF YOU NEW COMERS. DRAG RADIAL HAS COME A VERY LONG WAY IN 3 YEARS.. SMALL PAYOUT, NO CONTINGENCY,SMALL CAR COUNT, NO PERMANENT #, NO FULL SCHEDULE, VERY LITTLE COVERAGE IN THE RACE PAGES, NO POINTS, NO FINALS, NO COMPANY SUPPORT....AND ALL THE GUYS AND GALS IN THIS CLASS FOUGHT VERY HARD TO GET THIS CLASS TO WHERE IT IS. THAT'S Y IT SEEMS LIKE YOU FACE SO MUCH OPPOSITION WHEN YOU COME UP WITH THESE IN SANE RULE CHANGES...

THIS CLASS WE CONTINUE TO GROW. MORE COMPANIES ARE GETTING INVOLVED IN THIS CLASS.. THE FANS SAY THIS IS THE MOST X-CITING CLASS IN THE NMRA NEXT TO OUTLAW...THE RACERS R GETTING MAJOR SPONSORSHIP DEAL AND PRODUCT SUPPORT FOR THE COMPANIES LIKE NEVER BEFORE... OTHER RACE ORGANIZATION R INTERESTED IN ADDING DRAG RADIAL TO THERE RACE SCHEDULE FOR THE 2003 SEASON.. LOOK DRAG RADIAL NOW HAS OVER 77 REGISTERED MEMBERS UNDER THE CURRENT RULES THAT STAND...WOULD YOU CHANGE THE RULES FOR THE MAJORITY OR FOR THE MINORITY...HOPE TO SEE U GUYS IN 2003 SEASON...LEGAL

THE BIG DADDY

Derek50

09-14-2002, 10:24 AM

Originally posted by 93MustangLX306
Was the car/driver you talking about Christina Eldert? I know tat LaMotta's did build her a Mod powered 85/86 svo mustang with a TT set up on it.

Scott K

I don't know for sure but I think that Christina did run an Incon TT, then a super charger (I think Paxton.) and the last I heard now has a single turbo set up. Jake did not tell me who he's built TT cars for other than himself.

Derek50

09-14-2002, 10:50 AM

Originally posted by thebigdaddy
THAT'S FUNNY NOW EVERYBODY KNOWS THAT I BELIEVE THAT THE BLOWERS CARS NEED HELP...

I don't think I ever said that you thought that. I, however, do think that the supercharger guys are at a slight disadvantage and it looks like DR is looking to help them with a possible rule change. "J-Trim".

Originally posted by thebigdaddy
TWIN TURBO'S WOULD AT THIS TIME CREATE MORE PROBLEMS IN THE CLASS..AND GUESS WHO WOULD LOOSE...INCON TT... WHAT I MEAN IS JUST ANSWER THIS QUESTION FOR ME. LET'S SAY THAT INCON TT ARE LEGAL. NOW U HAVE A GUY SAYING HOW COME INCON TWIN TURBOS R LEGAL AND MAKE CARTECH KIT ISN'T... WHAT WOULD BE YOUR ANSWER?
BECAUSE IF TWIN TURBO'S BECOME LEGAL, I WILL FIGHT FOR ALL TWIN TURBO KITS TO BE LEGAL... THAN WHAT DO U DO FOR THE SUPERCHARGERS CARS OR NOS CARS...ALL IT CAUSES IS A BIG SNOWBALL EFFECT AND STARTS TO COMPLICATE MATTTERS.

The way I see it is that twin turbos would be regulated the same way as the other power adders. Single turbos are currently limited to those with an inducer size no larger than 77mm. For twin turbos I would do the same. Find the inducer size that would make a fair limit and make that the rule. You could even go as far as limiting the turbos that could be used to specific models that have been pre approved. Just like what is done with the super chargers. Then the class could even be opened up to all twin turbo kit and even home made kits as long as they abide by the rules. As for the supercharged and NOS cars I do not see this having any affect on them. If the rules are applied fairly then all cars should be able to compete at the same levels.

Phreakfree

09-14-2002, 04:45 PM

I tihnk one of the big reasons not to change the rules is because it's VERY hard to make them perfectly fair!!! the nmra and racers try all the time to do things to make them more and more fair, when you introduce a new poweradder or a new product and say of yeah, jst set up rules, ti'll be fair.. you have no idea! It takes a lot to find out whats fair, lots of testing. etc etc etc.... IMO, it would cause more trouble than its worth, I LOVE DR just the way it is, it has a great car count, and is my fav class! It doesn't need anything except a minor tune up for my blower guys... I'm just a fan for now, but I say leave it alone!

lugo

09-14-2002, 06:48 PM

It's very hard for the NMRA to make rules perfectly fair to everyone. Twin turbos (good idea):p ,but that would include everyones twin turbo kit like BD said; TDC, Turbotechnology, Cartech, LPA, Pro Turbo, IN-CON the only way to be fair to everyone. Or a single 76mm turbo (lot of hard work, test time) and go racing. With over 70+ registered members the future of the class looks very good the way it is know.

(Well the Blowers could use some help)

The only car that I know of to compete this year in DR using a twin turbo IN-CON kit was Scott. He will have a different set up for DR next year.:D

Derek50

09-18-2002, 09:18 AM

What do you think?
Let's say twin turbos were made legal in DR and that all kits and even custom setups were allowed. What do you think the turbos would be limited to for the twin turbo cars? T03, T04, T03/T04 hybrids? What about Garret turbos like the TE-44 that Cartech uses in it's TT kit?

NoSlix

09-18-2002, 11:38 AM

Personally, I think the issue should be revisited. You've got superchargers and hybrid turbos capable of between 1100 and 1200hp. Heck, a set of 60-1 Hifi's all out is only good for about that. TE44's slightly less.

thebigdaddy

09-18-2002, 02:50 PM

Originally posted by NoSlix
Personally, I think the issue should be revisited. You've got superchargers and hybrid turbos capable of between 1100 and 1200hp. Heck, a set of 60-1 Hifi's all out is only good for about that. TE44's slightly less.

The truth is that the class is not having problems with twin turbos in the class right now. We need to refine the rules we currently have. Allowing twins only will result into the Supercharger Cars wanting more and also the NOS cars. Personally the way the class is structured right now no one will be out of any moneys because, their r no twins right now... Let's view the entire picture, which should always be the case when considering rules... 360ci 351 with 2... let see race t-60 hybrid turbo's or what ever you want to call them...how fast will It go? So now the back pressure problem is solved, because your only feeding 1 turbo per side. Plus the lag, or sudden surge of power is gone, which makes the single turbo cars very difficult to get down the track now, will be gone. I'm a turbo guy, and trust me If twins r allowed that's the way I'll go and the results may benefit myself and the people that switch, but wont be good for the class..

THE BIG DADDY

Derek50

09-18-2002, 09:24 PM

Big D, I agree with most of what you have to say. DR is one of the most popular classes with both racers and fans and is in no current need to make changes to attract more racers or fans. However, I also think that by letting twin turbo cars compete this will only bring addition racers and fans to the class. Making a good situation even better.

This is where I disagree, so let me know what you think.

Allowing twins only will result into the Supercharger Cars wanting more and also the NOS cars.

I think that this would only be the case if the rules allow the TT cars and unfair advantage. This is not what I want to happen. This is why I listed turbos that would normally be maxed out at around 1000 HP which is probably under what the top DR cars are making.

I'm a turbo guy, and trust me If twins r allowed that's the way I'll go and the results may benefit myself and the people that switch, but wont be good for the class..

You're a twin turbo wanabe too. I knew it!!! :D Seriously though, I don't see why TT cars would not be good for the class, especially if they're running under rules that would make it fair for all the cars in the class regardless of the power adder used. I also think that the average Mustang racing fan would like to see twin turbos allowed in general. Here's a poll that I did on the Corral.
http://www.corral.net/forums/showthread.php?threadid=165826

What does everyone think? If rules could be established that would be fair to all racers, would you have a problem with TT cars running in DR? Oh, and I'll take that, it's very difficult making these "fair" rules, as a given. ;)

thebigdaddy

09-19-2002, 07:34 AM

Listen I'm going to keep it real

There will always be people that would join anything if the rules where allow certain things. If steriod where allow in track more people would compete, or bad grades would allow anyone to go to college..Your starting an Issue that hasn't been discussed in this class since the NMRA allowed it in 1999... As far as fans go they really do give a flying hoot what's under the hood of our cars. The other problem is the power to be don't know where to put the restriction on a twin turbo car and neither do u. To say this class will attract more cars if twin where allowed is not true.

Let me tell you guys what happens to this class when Post are made with no confirmed accuracy or truth. I get tons of e-mails from guys and gals saying I'm currently building a car for the class and I just had my Victor Jrs fully ported and now I read that TFS-R heads and Victor Sr. heads may be allowed. R the rules ever going to stop changing, because i would hate to change my setup now. Or I get this... (I really like DR a lot, and I'm currently building my car for this class, but it seem like there r to many problems with the rules so I'll sit this season out.) Or if TFS-R heads r allowed I want an X-trim. Allowing Twin turbos in this class at this time will certainly not help this class at this time... I've been racing DR since 1992 and I have never allowed twin turbos in any of my classes, and the only way I would let them in is if it was an all out Run what you Brung style race. I don't hate twins I'm a Turbo hooker u know what I mean. I'm just looking out for the growth of this class and here r the facts.

The Facts R:
When Drag Radial was first introduced it faced many obstacle and there were many things thrown our way about if you don't allow this the class wont grow and it has grown...
No contingency: It has grown
No permanent #'s it has grown
No full Schedule: It has grown
No finals in BG: It has grown
Small Payout: It has grown
No Cleveland Heads or Victor sr or TFS-R :It has grown
Allowed twins for 3 years: It has grown with out them
So what you say about twins has no validity to the growth of this class..This Class is destine to succeed. This class if like Funny Car or Top Fuel.. Drag Radial has grabbed the attention of many many corporate companies, and has top chassis builders rethinking how in the heavens to get these cars down the track. We have invoked the desired within most people to accomplish the unthinkable. A large challenge to chassis shop to make this thing happen, resulting in better built slick tire cars. There r Drag Radial Cars all over the country right now in some of the top sportman style chassis shops being worked on and getting sponsors...now that's a wonderful thing... Drag Radial has reinvented the $2.00 window... We bring XXXXX-Citement to the track. We bring families back together, because this class for the most part is family. New racers bring their Moms and Dads out for the first time to meet the guys that they have read about and aspire to be like..from the warm welcome new friendship r made. I have had more families support their children after attending a DR race than any other class that I have been Involved in because of the respect that we give to each other at the track. How we ban together to help eachother, make this all worth it.. So call your local Turbo company and start building a single turbo car.. The rules didn't change much for the 2001 season to the 2002 season. There were only 5small changes made in DR last year.

Hope to see you out next season...
The BD:) :)

Derek50

09-19-2002, 12:23 PM

Okay Big D, take it easy. I did not intend to make anyone angry. I think that you need to go back and re-read all of my posts from the beginning to see where I'm coming from. All I wanted to do was see if it was possible to keep the Incon TT kits legal in DR and to find out what everyone here thought about that. I have been very open and upfront about what I think and said so I'm not trying to sneak anything by anyone.
As for keeping things real, well comparing twin turbos to "steroids" and "bad grades" implies that using twin trubos would be like cheating which is bogus. I don't know how many times I have to say this but I guess that I'll have to say it once again. My feeling is that if twin turbos are allowed, that they should be done so with rules that would not give them an unfair advantage. If this is done then there would be no reason for other racers to change their combination from what they're running to a TT setup because there would be no performance advantage in doing so. You could pick the power adder of your choice and have as good a chance to win as anyone else.

As far as fans go they really do give a flying hoot what's under the hood of our cars. Not sure if you meant to say don't give a flying hoot or not???? Here's my take. Fan's do care about what's under the hood. If they didn't then do you think that sponsors would give a crap about wanting racers to use their products? Hell, some fans (me included) cheer for our favorite power adder to win. GO TURBO!!!:D

The other problem is the power to be don't know where to put the restriction on a twin turbo car and neither do u. That may be the case, but it is something that is doable. I merely suggested that twin turbos could be restricted by the size of the turbos that would be allowed. I then gave some examples and asked what everyone thought.

To say this class will attract more cars if twin where allowed is not true. No one knows that for sure. That is just your opinion. I happen to disagree. No big deal, so we agree to disagree.

Let me tell you guys what happens to this class when Post are made with no confirmed accuracy or truth.
I take offence to this statement. You're calling me a liar? :mad: Tell me where I've lied or misrepresented something and I'll be happy to talk about it.

The rest of that paragraph explains a lot to me. I totally understand where you're coming from. I can see why you'd be concerned with a bunch of rule changes shaking up the class and I agree with you. I know that you've put a lot of time and effort into this class and I totally respect that. I also really liked the rest of your post because it shows exactly why I'd like to join the ranks of a DR racer. My only intention here was to discuss something that I'm very interested in and find out what everyone thought. I think that this post has been a very good discussion and very informative to me. I just wish that you'd keep the personal attacks out of it.

Sorry about the long post everyone.

JHenke

09-19-2002, 12:38 PM

the last 3 years, tt's were allowed and how many actually ran? One this year, maybe 4 total. Let's just be safe by saying it's not gonna overflow the class w/ new racers.

Let it go. What's the fascination? BD went 8.71. Run a single and be happy (and fast).

Derek50

09-19-2002, 01:14 PM

Hey Jim,

Incon was having a ton of problems delivering kits and this may have had an impact on how many racers would choose to run the kits. That's why I mentioned that the kit may be making a comeback via Lamotta Performance. I just wanted to know if anyone thought that this would make an impact on the decision to drop the kit from the class. That's all.

Hey guys, lets keep things in perspective here. This is a forum to discuss things related to the Renegade, Drag Radial and Real Street class. I just brought this subject up because I thought that I would make an interesting subject to talk about. Oh, and that I have an Incon TT kit that I'd like to race with didn't hurt either. :D

thebigdaddy

09-19-2002, 02:24 PM

This thread is getting way to much publicity..

Listen Derek: Twin Turbos were voted out last year. By NMRA and the racers in the class.
Second your not getting me mad I find this very amusing. My point is you, don't know what to do to regulate twins and neither does the tech official right now, because it's not something that they have had to spend alot of time on regulating. Whether it's to much power or to little power.
Third if your going to quote what I say quote this..Read the bottom of your forum. "Rules and Regulations" Discussion r to be made under that forum. All rule discussion are to be directed to the Tech Director Wesley Roberson and or Thom Bates.(not me).

Futhermore the NMRA posted on September 4 2002 called
Official Nmra 2003 Rules/series Feedback Form
******* Due September 16th, 2003. (DEADLINE). *********

• Please remember to complete this form and submit it before September 16, 2002 via e-mail, fax, or mail. This form must be sent directly to the address listed below and not to any other individual or location! Thank you!

NMRA
3518 West Lake Center Drive Suite D
Santa Ana, CA 92704
e-mail: info@promediapub.com
fax: 714-444-2509
So Derek as long as you completed this form by the 16th then what I say really doesn't matter... I'm just like BASF I don't make the RULES I just try to make them better.
In the future Derek if your going to say that what I said offended you, because these types of post turn people away... The fact is they do.. I get the E-mails-you don't....And fans don't care if you have a Turbo 1or2, Supercharger, or NOS. They will all find a combination they like and side with it....so don't tell me that there are fans that r not showing up at the races because twin r not allowed.

Let's look at your e-mail to me.Even you contradict your own self.

Hey Dwayne (thebigdaddy),

I've been a fan of DR since it started. I liked it because it was a class that I could see myself racing in. I started to look for a car to buy and build and even bought my power adder of choice. A brand new Incon TT 800 kit, cool DR is the only class to allow twin turbos. (I know, it's no longer legal for 2003. SUCKS!!!)

SO WHY WOULD YOU BUY A POWER ADDER KNOWING THAT IT WONT BE LEGAL FOR 2003.

NEXT YOU SAID:

Anyway, when I started thinking about this class I was looking at making about 800 HP. Now it looks like 1000 to 1200 HP is what's needed. Do you see this going higher and higher? I don't want to build for a class that is just going to leave me in the dust as each new racing season starts. (I can't afford it. ) I was hoping that DR was a class that had restrictions in place that would allow for some serious HP but that would also limit the HP for all combinations so that in the end most of the cars would be running at about the same level of performance and the race would be won by the better driver and/or suspension tuner. Right now this is not the case. The guy with the most HP wins. Not to mention talk about New Race Turbos, New Cylinder Heads and other rule changes are a big turn off for people like me looking to get into the DR ranks...

WHERE DID YOU READ THAT THE NMRA WAS ALLOWING A NEW CYLINDER HEAD FOR THE 2003 SEASON STATEMENT. SO EVEN YOU HATE TO READ NONE VALIDATED MESSAGES::::New Cylinder Heads and other rule changes are a big turn off for people like me looking to get into the DR ranks...(THAT'S YOUR OWN WORDING:NOT MINE)

NEXT YOU SAY :I'd like to see the cars limited to about 800 or 900 HP and even limit tire size to 275's. After all t
he class is marketed as "General Description - Drag Radial was designed for street driven, D.O.T. Radial equipped small-block '79-up Fox-chassis Fords." Sounds like a 30 mile cruise to prove the "street drive" status may be in order as well. Oh well, until I start my own racing association... I'll have to live by the rules.

SO IT SOUNDS LIKE TO ME ,YOU JUST WANT TO CHANGE THE RULES FOR YOUR OWN GRATIFICATIONS, AND HAVE NO REGARDS FOR THE RACERS THAT HAVE FOUGHT TO GET TO WHERE THE CLASS IS AT THIS POINT. SO TAKE YOUR OWN ADVICE :I'll have to live by the rules..

The Big Daddy (trust me I ain't mad at Ya)

:) :)

Derek50

09-19-2002, 03:33 PM

Hey Big D,

I got ya. Just understand that my intent was to find out what you guys that run in DR think about twin turbos, not to start a change in the rules. I wanted to see if this is something that may come back to DR in the future. That's why I posted here. I also never said that I know how to regulate twin turbos in the class. I was only making the point that it could be done if the NMRA wanted to.

Oh, and I have seen the form and have not filed it out. Again, my intention was to see what the racers in DR thought about TT's.

so don't tell me that there are fans that r not showing up at the races because twin r not allowed. I never said that, I said, that fans do care what's under the hood. And you agree?? I think??? They will all find a combination they like and side with it

Let's look at your e-mail to me.Even you contradict your own self.

Hey Dwayne (thebigdaddy),

I've been a fan of DR since it started. I liked it because it was a class that I could see myself racing in. I started to look for a car to buy and build and even bought my power adder of choice. A brand new Incon TT 800 kit, cool DR is the only class to allow twin turbos. (I know, it's no longer legal for 2003. SUCKS!!!)

SO WHY WOULD YOU BUY A POWER ADDER KNOWING THAT IT WONT BE LEGAL FOR 2003. How is that contradicting myself? I bought the kit before the decision was made to get rid of it. I even said that in a previous post.

WHERE DID YOU READ THAT THE NMRA WAS ALLOWING A NEW CYLINDER HEAD FOR THE 2003 SEASON STATEMENT. SO EVEN YOU HATE TO READ NONE VALIDATED MESSAGES::::New Cylinder Heads and other rule changes are a big turn off for people like me looking to get into the DR ranks...(THAT'S YOUR OWN WORDING:NOT MINE) Yes, I said that, but if you put this in context of my e-mail my concern was that the HP levels in DR are going up and up and that I did not think that the rules needed to be changed in order to allow this to happen. As I said before, I see your point about changing a lot of rules or making big changes as being bad for the class. This was not my intent.

SO IT SOUNDS LIKE TO ME ,YOU JUST WANT TO CHANGE THE RULES FOR YOUR OWN GRATIFICATIONS, AND HAVE NO REGARDS FOR THE RACERS THAT HAVE FOUGHT TO GET TO WHERE THE CLASS IS AT THIS POINT. SO TAKE YOUR OWN ADVICE :I'll have to live by the rules.. Have you read any of my posts? What this sounds like to me is that if you post anything about DR that bigdaddy does not like you will get called names and insulted. Everyone here has been posting in a very professional and friendly manner except you. If your above statement were true then I would not have even bothered to post here. I would have just petitioned the NMRA to make the change.

Man, I'm happy that you're not mad at me. Hate to see what you'd be like if you were. :D

thebigdaddy

09-19-2002, 06:13 PM

The above statement are true and you would have known that if you would have spent more time reading the forums and rules.

Seems like to me if you read any of the replies, no one seems to agree with your arguement. Oh yeah just 1 guy who has never raced in this class either and who has a combination that's not legal for the class also.

In the beginning of this post you asked a question.. I'm sorry if you didn't like the short answer I gave you. So you just decided to keep it going and going by writing books. Other racers even answered your questioned and apparently you didn't like their answer either. I guess what is good for the goose is not good for the gander. What's wrong? you don't like being quoted or something.

You should read the answers that was given to your topics and listen to what people r saying. You don't have to listen to me at all.. If you don't like the answer, don't ask the questions.

One more question You say that you brought the kit before the rule change, than y did you wait tell now to bring it up.. The rule was decided at the last Drag Radial Race of the year.. last year..
Aug 5, 2001 That's over a year ago.. you should have started petitioning the NMRA last November..

Hey if anybody here thinks that I have said anything mean and nasty in my post please let me know. It's seems like Derek believes everyone else was polite except me..

The Big Daddy

Spence

09-19-2002, 06:25 PM

If that TT setup is so popular, you shouldnt have any problem selling it and building a single nasty azz turbo legal for the class. how about if the TT was legal, are you willing to travel to atleast 6 of 8 races(if approved) along with more TT cars? My take by your posts and email is your afraid the cost is also going to get out of hand......well it already has and unless your willing to risk alot of cash, this class is going to be tough on you no matter what setup you choose. Good luck with what ever you decide.

FWIW, BD and I go at it occasionally, but its always good in the end.....computer typing can get things way outta whack, just let it go.

93MustangLX306

09-19-2002, 06:28 PM

Listen, I have read the whole post. I am just going to add my 3 cents. Your sound like you did some research, and you sound like you just wanted to feel everyone out, and see if you couldnt get TT's added back to the DR rules. The answer is NO, it was legal and for 3 years there just wasnt a push for it.

Big D knows the rules inside and out, and has helped so much to try to make a fair/level playing field. I can not think of a single other person that has put as much tiem and effort into the class as Big D. Without changing the original point of the post, I just wanted to add,What Drag Radial really needs is to simply the rules, and to level them out. Changing things every year is not helping, and it is almost to the point where the rules are equalizing out, and can be in place long enough to build a car around.

With no disrespect to either one of you guys. I just wanted to throw a followers, and participents view into the mix.

Now lets have a hugg, and Derek, get a single and come out and race, i's an awesome class man. Big D, can't wait til the next race.See you in BG

Scott Kalisch

D1-R Stocker

09-19-2002, 07:11 PM

Sell the Incon kit and buy a blower. Maybe a D1-R? I might know were you could get one!:D That would make you a legal beagle for DR. Just my .02 cents.

thebigdaddy

09-19-2002, 07:28 PM

Hey Derek

Us boyz and Gals have nuttin but lov for Ya baby in Drag Radial.
I'll see u in Florida around Oct 10th...I'll be in Orlando.

The BD:) :) :) :) :)

Derek50

09-19-2002, 07:30 PM

Hey Big D,

I bought my Incon kit when a deal came up almost two years ago that was too good to pass up. I was not ready at the time to build a car to race with but I kept an eye on the DR class. When I heard that the Incon kit was going to be phased out at the beginning of the year I did contact someone at NMRA. I think it was Thom that I talked to and he did tell me that the kit was being dropped because of a lack of racers supporting it. At the time I did not have a car to bolt the kit to so I figured oh well. Well a few months ago a car came up that was perfect. I worked out a deal and got the car home. Then I started to think about what I wanted to do with it. I contacted Jack Lamotta to get some information on the Incon Kit and where I could get parts etc... That is when he mentioned that he's working to bring the Incon Kit back. Wow, I started to think that if that happened then maybe it could stay a part of the DR class and I could build my car to race in DR. I figured that this would be the best place to talk about this and find out what everyone thought so I started this post.

Big D, your answer about the rules needing to be stable in order for the class to continue to be successful is a good and valid answer. I totally agree with it. Maybe TT in 2004 :D Just kidding!

Hey Spence, Since I'm in Florida I'd be able to make the two races in Florida for sure as well as the Georgia race. I'd have to admit that making 6 or all 8 events would be tough but I'd do my best to make them. :D

Thanks everyone for all of your replies and comments. I will talk to Dennis Ramsey at Ramsey's Performance here in Tampa to see about a single Turbo setup. Then you guys better watch out.

Derek50