Preliminary Rules PS

[ET/MPH]

Why is it that the Trick Flow Heads are the only ones that are being penalized with +50lbs? This is a load of B.S!

[Freddie]

I agree on the question on the heads???

also what is up with the wieght breaks??? a 5.0 with a set of trick flows and a carb has to wiegh in at 3225, on a 10" tire... the big advantage seems to be in the Mod Motors..

If I wanted to run a mod motor I would have built my car for that class... instead I spent the last year working on my setup for Pure Street, and throw an extra 100# on my setup.. I was just getting close to being able to run with the middle of the pack..

[Brandon Alsept]

Care to elaborate on how a Mod motor has a advantage?

[teddy]

Originally Posted by ET/MPH

Why is it that the Trick Flow Heads are the only ones that are being penalized with +50lbs? This is a load of B.S!

That's the biggest P.O.S rule I've seen in years!!! The carb penalty I could care less about cause I will run which ever system is faster, but the T/W penalty-----get a F'ing grip!!

[Freddie]

Originally Posted by Brandon Alsept

Care to elaborate on how a Mod motor has a advantage?

just look at the wieght differance... I know it takes more to build a good mod motor.. but lets face it 200# or more is still a advantage... let alone the tight restrictions the 302 has on cam/heads/intake systems...

I dont care what you build for a motor.. if your making 450hp in either a 302 or a mod motor... under the wieghts the way they are.. the mod motor will be faster simply becuase the car is lighter...

[rmracing]

B.S. Thats right ! The fastest pass ever by an efi car and the record for all of the 05 season was by a BRODIX headed car . That car spanked all the twisted wedge efi cars so bad that it had the championship wraped up about
halfway through the season . 1 year later there still havent been any faster efi passes by a twisted wedge headed car.

Rocky

[teddy]

Boys get your rules e-mails sent in promptly. P/S has been a class that the rules makers haven't screwed with for years, until now

[Brandon Alsept]

Originally Posted by Freddie

just look at the wieght differance... I know it takes more to build a good mod motor.. but lets face it 200# or more is still a advantage... let alone the tight restrictions the 302 has on cam/heads/intake systems...

I dont care what you build for a motor.. if your making 450hp in either a 302 or a mod motor... under the wieghts the way they are.. the mod motor will be faster simply becuase the car is lighter...

Well then run EFI and heads besides TW heads and you will only be 100lbs

Remember NMRA is not holding a gun to your heads on what combo you have to run

[teddy]

Originally Posted by Brandon Alsept

Remember NMRA is not holding a gun to your heads on what combo you have to run

Just a brick of weight over your head

[Brandon Alsept]

Originally Posted by teddy

Just a brick of weight over your head

Well I didn't say they where holding any weapon against you, just not a gun

[sam sso2077]

Originally Posted by teddy

That's the biggest P.O.S rule I've seen in years!!! The carb penalty I could care less about cause I will run which ever system is faster, but the T/W penalty-----get a F'ing grip!!

What's a matter Teddy, rules not suit you?

[vrtical]

looks like Teddy should buy a modular kmember for the new car I am actually surprised they listened to the weight penalties for certain heads.

[teddy]

Originally Posted by sam sso2077

What's a matter Teddy, rules not suit you?

Both changes affected me. One I agree with and expected, the other was lobby'd for by someone who doesn't run in the class and affects 98% of the class. I'm sure I'm wrong but the only one I know of off hand is Jimmy that runs a different head than the T/W.
Don't you have some SSO rules to complain about

[teddy]

Originally Posted by vrtical

looks like Teddy should buy a modular kmember for the new car I am actually surprised they listened to the weight penalties for certain heads.

I think alot of it is who does/did the lobbying

[Perky]

Originally Posted by teddy

Both changes affected me. One I agree with and expected, the other was lobby'd for by someone who doesn't run in the class and affects 98% of the class. I'm sure I'm wrong but the only one I know of off hand is Jimmy that runs a different head than the T/W.
Don't you have some SSO rules to complain about

Jimmy
Larry
Maybe Amy?
Modular guys

[teddy]

Originally Posted by Perky

Jimmy
Larry
Maybe Amy?
Modular guys

Amy now has T/W. I don't know Larry therefore I know nothing of his combo. Ram racing looks better and better.

[Perky]

Originally Posted by teddy

Amy now has T/W. I don't know Larry therefore I know nothing of his combo. Ram racing looks better and better.

I thought she changed but wasn't 100%

Yeah Ram is pretty cool deal.. Nothing like All motor on radials running LOW 9's!!!

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/e...8e00fd46ee.htm

Right now EFI has to weigh more...

[teddy]

Originally Posted by Perky

I thought she changed but wasn't 100%

Yeah Ram is pretty cool deal.. Nothing like All motor on radials running LOW 9's!!!

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/e...8e00fd46ee.htm

Right now EFI has to weigh more...

Awesome pass Perky I see you had to but the bars on. That damn car has always been on the bumper

[Brandon Alsept]

Originally Posted by Perky

Jimmy
Larry
Maybe Amy?
Modular guys

Well I can say I had 0 to do with weight for a certain head.

[Perky]

Originally Posted by teddy

Awesome pass Perky I see you had to but the bars on. That damn car has always been on the bumper

Yeah that was the first pass with them.. That was the last time out for this year... it rode several 100 ft wheelies on radials this year.!!!! with the radial tire you need to be up on it for sure....

[rmracing]

Teddy lets say this was proposed by someone who dosent even run in the class anymore. If I sold my combo and guit for a while and wanted to come back and i thought my brand heads or whatever wernt good enough I had to start all over I would buy the brand i thought was better . Say this person was to come back , It sounds like they would want to run the other brand head if they are trying to get a weight break on that head . Sounds a little shaddy to me . B_ _ch about your combo isnt competive , get a weight break , then come out and kick everyone butts . Why not try , its worked in other classes.


Rocky

[RHecox]

Gene held the record and won the championship without using twist wedge heads.

I agree the heads are more appealing and make more power, but how much? enough to warrant a 50# penalty? I dont think so. When are they going to penalize you for running a certain intake or even headers. How about a penalty for who assembled or built your engine. One person is obviously better than the other so why not list who builds your engine and slap a penalty on them for that too. How about my Bogart rims and your Weld magnums? The welds are 4 pounds lighter... can they get a 20 pound penalty because I cant afford them?

[ISSUES]

i always wanted to have to weigh 3225#'s

anyone looking for a set of TW heads j/k

i really hope this rule doesnt stick.

now im afraid to look at the F/S rules.....

[rmracing]

Iwould like to see a weight penalty for coupes and lxs due to they have an advantage over the gts . It is defanately an advantage having that much weight to move around . How crazy can we get here. I know of a car that runs alot more air pressure than the rest due to having a ton of weight in the rear that a gt could never get . If you can hook up and still run extra air it is less drag and better et. We have added 5 pounds of air in the slicks on the dyno and got 10 more hp to the tires .



Rocky

[RHecox]

Originally Posted by rmracing

Iwould like to see a weight penalty for coupes and lxs due to they have an advantage over the gts . It is defanately an advantage having that much weight to move around . How crazy can we get here. I know of a car that runs alot more air pressure than the rest due to having a ton of weight in the rear that a gt could never get . If you can hook up and still run extra air it is less drag and better et. We have added 5 pounds of air in the slicks on the dyno and got 10 more hp to the tires .



Rocky

If they want a penalty on the TW heads then why not follow what they proposed in Real Street and drop the base weight 50 and then let the penalties follow from there.

That is going to be my suggestion. Keep the 50 pound penalty, even though I dont fully agree with it but drop the base weight 50#.

What heads was Ron Anderson using? TFS?

[clmrhayden]

Didn't Mike Tymensky run a 10.41 in BG and how fast could that have been #100 lighter? I think it is time to change to a mod motor.

[John Mize]

Sorry guys and gals. I didn't make the TFS head weight suggestion but I am one of the few that will benefit from the penalty because I am running something else so I can't say I disagree with the penalty.

I think the carb penalty was pretty much on the money and this was my quote from November

Originally Posted by John Mize

75lb would be appropriate, plus I think the limit on weight of a car in this class should never have to exceed 3200lb. It just doesn't make sense to have to weight more than that. If 75lb isn't enough then drop some weight off the AOD/EFI combo.

I do agree that the mod motor stuff shouldn't have opened up the door that much. And I definitely agree that our base weight should be dropped for safety reasons.

Either way, much like many of you, I want to know what the final decision is so I can get busy on my stuff. Please consider what will make the class as level a playing field as possible and have fun if you go to PRI. I won't be there but maybe several of you could talk to Tom about your suggestions and finalizing things soon.

[GeneHindman]

I haven't read the rules yet, but I did put in a rules proposal for what I believe is fair if I am racing with Brodix or Edelbrock heads against the T/W. By reading what you are posting, I see that they may have added 50# to the T/W head (which I think is not enough) and I maybe they added 50# more to the carb for a total of 75# penalty (which I think maybe a "tad" too much). Either way, I also asked for the base weight to be 3000# and that way if the guys who got a weight penalty (Carb and T/W) that they would only have to add a few pounds to the car. And for those that didn't have weight penalties, it would be up to them to pull the weight and take advantage the reduction of weight. I am for this rule because I think it is fair, and I will give examples for anyone who wants to talk about it. As a matter of fact, I did this just a few months ago with Teddy on here somewhere. And yes, I did win the Championship and locked it up early in the year, but it had nothing to do with how much work I did right? Or how bad the others were doing the whole season...right? I went a 10.31 in BG and the scales were 40# lighter there.... I went 10.43 in MG with 3500 feet of air. Anderson went 10.29 with 4000 feet of there this year.
What about Brad Meadows, he ran Edlebrocks for years and went 10.50's, just a tenth behind me most of the time. He suddenly switched to T/W and now he's kicking alot of butt and going 10.20's alot. What about Amy Sherwin, she had a set of my Brodix heads (which I know were good) and she never made a 10 second pass... but yet she got a set of T/W and has been in the 10.80's now. Rich Groh said he tried every head out thereand the Brodix looked good on the benches, but would NOT run on the track compared to the T/W. The facts are out there, you just can't have your blinders on.
Ryan's idea for having certain people doing your stuff and having different penalties is funny, but he has a point behind it. You guys with the same combination as Anderson are still getting beat by 1.5 tenths. What does it matter to you if you still have to weigh the same the fastest... The only ones getting a break are the ones not "in the hunt".
The only thing I disagree with at this time is the base weights. I think they all should be at 3000# and penalties added from there. I think the modulars and a EFI pushrod with NON-T/W heads should be at equal weights.
Now, just so you know... I aint coming back yet. I only put a rules proposal in to try and make the racing fair and closer. (just like they did after KC in 2005). I gave my honest opinion with very good data. If I came back this coming year, I would still buy me a new set of T/W heads and go racing if I were to use a pushrod, but I wouldn't. I would have a modular in a foxbody@ 3000#, and then the following year it would have to weigh more like the carb combo.
Anyone want to sponsor a modular engine for me to work with and get some good coverage and data with? I have the car. Tymenski...Pappito? You guys have something laying around?
One more thing.. Does it matter that "I don't race this class" since thats what a couple of you have said? I have been here longer than any of you, and could be back at the drop of a hat. But I guess since I took a year off, do a family thing, you guys want to throw stones. Well, just remember... You guys still aint as fast as someone else with the same combination you are running, So what does that say about your program? Atleast I was the fastest with what I was using.

[teddy]

WOW, where to begin. Nobody's throwing stones at you for taling time of to be with your family, matter of fact thats a very noble thing. All of this data that you have, I'm sure you have as far as different intakes(I know you tested more than the Holley, and cam manufactures, etc. I bet some were better than others. Please post here your results so we can propose weight changes for those as well-its only fair, and will save people money, right. Brad did more than bolt on heads, I believe the motor he was running was 2 years old without a freshen among many things. I bet if you were to ask Amy, she did more than bolt on a new set of heads, wasn't it a complete new engine??? Yes you went 10.31 with Brodix, you also as many others do pick up every year. Is it still true that when you drove the gold car mid season it went faster in the 1/8th than you've ever been?? So maybe you would have went .20's as well. Gene I have alot of respect for you in that you are a very accomplished racer and are very fast with your program. YOU WOULD HAVE WENT .20's. If the rules stay the way they are it is a golden opportunity for you to once again dominate with your proven program. And wanting to down other programs, I'll give you one piece of info as far as my combo being .15 behind Ron. In BG I went a 10.35 with a 1.45 60 ft. I'm doing what I can in building a new car to cure the issues. What do you think the car might have went with one of those 1.38 60fts?? My engine program isn't too far off, its my chassis. Oh ya see ya in Bradenton

[rmracing]

Gene , I guess the mod guys should be thanking you . If you think about it you just slowed down every pushrod car but 1 . There are 4 pushrods that i know of not running tw heads and 3 of the 4 are carbs . So basically all the pushrod guys and gal will have to add weight but 1 . Why not just ask for a weight break for the non twisted wedge head pushrod cars for 50 pounds instead of adding weight to all the pushrod cars. That would make more since wouldnt it .



Rocky

[Shawn Johnson]

Originally Posted by clmrhayden

Didn't Mike Tymensky run a 10.41 in BG and how fast could that have been #100 lighter? I think it is time to change to a mod motor.

I have a good 4v motor for anyone looking to switch...

[ET/MPH]

Can anyone explain why the TW heads are more superior to any of the other cylinder heads on the list????
Give some justification on the weight penalty.

[teddy]

Originally Posted by rmracing

Why not just ask for a weight break for the non twisted wedge head pushrod cars for 50 pounds instead of adding weight to all the pushrod cars. That would make more since wouldnt it .



Rocky

I see your point Rocky, but I still think we should weigh the same, whatever head you run.

[clmrhayden]

Originally Posted by clmrhayden

Didn't Mike Tymensky run a 10.41 in BG and how fast could that have been #100 lighter? I think it is time to change to a mod motor.

Never mind I was looking at the 3V at 2900#

[rmracing]

Teddy, I totally agree . I think they should weigh the same also . I am going to send a letter to the rules commitee that the weights be the same on all heads . The facts are simple . The fastest efi pass to date in nmra was Gene with his brodix heads . There have been many efi guys with twisted wedge heads that could not touch Gene . Gene is a good racer but that does not mean that no one else has tried hard enough or tried enough things. Many would be suprised how much money and things that I have tried , among others. Thousands and thousands of dollars before ever seeing any gain . Same as you Teddy , I mean come on spending money on a whole new car just because you think you could make it better.Some dont understand that there are other people who will spend every last dollar to try anything and everything they think will make them faster. I do think that if , if they insist on giving a break that they just take weight off the non twisted wedge pushrod cars just like they do for auto cars , they are -50 pounds.If we have to give up something that would be better that adding the weight to us and making us weigh 150 over the mods also.


Rocky

[rmracing]

Originally Posted by ET/MPH

Can anyone explain why the TW heads are more superior to any of the other cylinder heads on the list????
Give some justification on the weight penalty.

Because Gene said so. I am just wandering if the twisted wedge is so much better than the brodix then why wasnt this proposed last year when Gene and the brodix heads were untouchable. Then when Ron came out at the end of the year last year and won Gene was complaning about the carb being the advantage. Now it has turned into a head issue and not the carb. Sorry Gene I do think you are a great racer but i have to disagree on this one . This dosent make since. You have also posted in the past about how much better the brodix are than the afr heads , did you recomend that they get even more of a break than tfs and brodix.


Rocky

[John Mize]

Originally Posted by rmracing

You have also posted in the past about how much better the brodix are than the afr heads , did you recomend that they get even more of a break than tfs and brodix.Rocky

I'll take another 25lbs deduction with my AFRs... just kidding..!

[Freddie]

Adding more wieght to my combination is just insane.. I have spent alot of time and $$$ this year to build and test a car to run in 07.. I am still a bit off pace with everyone else we could only run 10.9's with our T/W heads..

to thro more wieght on this would be putting me into the 11's.. not going to happen... I will throw a Powerglide in the car and bracket race it ....


HMMMM...

Anyone interested in a Tremec 3550 that has been rebuilt to TKO 600 Specs, Pro Shifted, with a Pro 5.0 shifter, Bellhousing and H.D Cable?

[34787lx]

Originally Posted by RHecox

I agree the heads are more appealing and make more power, but how much? enough to warrant a 50# penalty? I dont think so. When are they going to penalize you for running a certain intake or even headers. How about a penalty for who assembled or built your engine. One person is obviously better than the other so why not list who builds your engine and slap a penalty on them for that too. How about my Bogart rims and your Weld magnums? The welds are 4 pounds lighter... can they get a 20 pound penalty because I cant afford them?

I agree 100% with this post. I'm not a P/S racer just a fan of the class so take it for what it is worth.

[rmracing]

Gene , You posted about Brad going from 10.50 to 10.20 with twisted wedge , He actually was going 10.40s with the edelbrocks and it was you who said that you could take Brads car the way it sat with the edelbrocks and make it run 10.20s . Did you not offer Brad to take his car home with you and you would only change a couple of small things and give it back to him running 10.20s . Maybe he figured out something else , just like you already knew , right , not tw.

Amy sold her brodix to Darrin C and he went faster this year than he ever had , I believe he said he got down to a 10.60 after the season was over.Way faster than he was last year in 05.

Amy i believe was running twisted wedge all year Gene and not going fast .She had a new complete engine in the works and was put in at the end of the year and went faster . The twisted wedge heads wernt the reason. Maybe Amy could tell you all of here problems over the year and about the borrowed engine that she was using just to run while she was waiting on a engine with all the goodies to be built .



Rocky

[ISSUES]

would someone in tech please justify the weight on the head?

couldve just made it 100#'s for a carb and just left it at that.

[GeneHindman]

Originally Posted by teddy

WOW, where to begin. Nobody's throwing stones at you for taking time of to be with your family, matter of fact thats a very noble thing.

but someone by the name of "teddy and rmracing" made a snide comment about the rules being changed for someone who doesn't even race the class. in my opinion, that was a stab.

Originally Posted by teddy

All of this data that you have, I'm sure you have as far as different intakes(I know you tested more than the Holley, and cam manufactures, etc. I bet some were better than others. Please post here your results so we can propose weight changes for those as well-its only fair, and will save people money, right.

I didn't post the data from the heads here either, but you do have 1 valid point. The intakes "COULD" have a weight break/penalty. The cams cannot. Reason is, we are not limited to manufacturers on the cams, but we are on the heads and intakes.

Originally Posted by teddy

Brad did more than bolt on heads, I believe the motor he was running was 2 years old without a freshen among many things. I bet if you were to ask Amy, she did more than bolt on a new set of heads, wasn't it a complete new engine???

Brad and Amy both had fresh engine with their old heads at one time also, both were slower. Ask them if they'd switch back. Even with the penalty now.

Originally Posted by teddy

And wanting to down other programs, I'll give you one piece of info as far as my combo being .15 behind Ron. In BG I went a 10.35 with a 1.45 60 ft. I'm doing what I can in building a new car to cure the issues. What do you think the car might have went with one of those 1.38 60fts?? My engine program isn't too far off, its my chassis. Oh ya see ya in Bradenton

I'm not downing your program, it's the facts. My mind must be slipping though, I could have sworn your 60's were better than that in BG. In Atco, you had a 1,45 and went a 10.43 I think. Sorry, I wasn;t there though but it's still irrelevant. If it's so easy... I'd be willing to bet you a grand that you could put a set of Brodix on and go a tenth or more slower! Just think, you could get alot that head paid for if you think your right.

Originally Posted by rmracing

The facts are simple . The fastest efi pass to date in nmra was Gene with his brodix heads . There have been many efi guys with twisted wedge heads that could not touch Gene.

Ya, but how many of those same people can't touch Ron and Brad either?

Originally Posted by rmracing

Gene is a good racer but that does not mean that no one else has tried hard enough or tried enough things.

I thought the same thing last year when they decided to pull that weight off the carb cars, just so they could make the field level. I didn't think that was quite fair either, but it worked.

Originally Posted by rmracing

I do think that if , if they insist on giving a break that they just take weight off the non twisted wedge pushrod cars just like they do for auto cars , they are -50 pounds.If we have to give up something that would be better that adding the weight to us and making us weigh 150 over the mods also.

I tried to get the base down to 3000# and I think that the EFI cars without T/W should be at equal weights of the modulars. then that would put the Carb cars with T/W at the same weight as they were last season. Each and every one of you P/S racers (since I'm not ) should send a rules proposal for 3000#base.
Besides, this is not the only class effected. I have heard... but not read... that the R/S has this new rule and so does Mean Street in NMCA. So, maybe this rule should have been effect a long time ago. Lot's of other classes have penalties for certain heads, this one is no different now. If I were you guys and gals, I would try and get the base down now, I would figure that the weights will stick for a while.
None of you have a clue as to how much time and effort I put into the Brodix program to make them what they were in my program, and I still know the T/W is a superior head. Just do your own research and see why. Or better yet, I'll give some light... 15* intake valve and 17* exhaust valve. We can't even mill our heads that far to make that 17* angle, much less the 15*. What about the fact that it has a .400" shorter intake runner with a very nice cross section? You know what that'll do with velocity? what the 1/2 shorter Intake valve? You think the weight of the valve will matter any?
I still bet that none of you are willing to switch back to a Non T/W head and I still bet that anyone starting from scratch will take the 50# hit and still use the T/W.

Originally Posted by teddy

Boys get your rules e-mails sent in promptly. P/S has been a class that the rules makers haven't screwed with for years, until now

Rules haven't been messed with now either, just adjusted weights. Cost less than $200 for this change including new rear springs. Heck, your car didn't work anyway to hear you tell it, this should help it now.

Originally Posted by teddy

That's the biggest P.O.S rule I've seen in years!!! The carb penalty I could care less about cause I will run which ever system is faster, but the T/W penalty-----get a F'ing grip!!

What does it matter, if it effects everyone, then everyone will slow down the same right? Maybe the "grip" could come from you and think reasonably on this.... If you could care less about the carb rule and you will use which ever is quicker, then just do the same for the head rule. I bet you still use the T/W.
Relax guys, just get the base dropped down to 3000# like I proposed and the you will not have to change anything unless you want to take advantage to the weight reduction. Send it in and quit talking about it.

Originally Posted by issues

would someone in tech please justify the weight on the head?

couldve just made it 100#'s for a carb and just left it at that.

The facts speak for themselves on the heads. It's all over the net, plenty of data everywhere. The carb doesn't need 100# anymore I don't think, unless their filling their bowls with good stuff before the lanes. Then they need more than that.

[BigEd]

Alright a newbee question with TW heads on his combo.
WTF is #50 worth or not worth at the track ???
Please let me in on the secret. Because @ MG with me in the car and 1/2 tank of fuel, I was over 3200 and I am a big guy.
Damn for me the best pass to date was 3 weeks ago at Cecil @ 11.13. I think I have made 20 - 24 passes with the car the whole time I have had it. I would love to spend more time praticing, learning and trying new parts. But I am simply going to say my family comes before anything. No excuses, take it for what its worth.

[Damn Yankee]

Seeing as how Pure Street is supposed to resemble street cars with your typical bolt on's like k-members, a-arms, aluminum heads and intakes, electric fans, water pumps ect, yet the base weights dont come anywhere near the weight of a typical mustang. My 1991 mustang weighed in at 2840lbs with factory steel heads and a stock front end, so where do they come up with these freekin base weights. #3225lbs for a 5.0 with T/W heads and a carb, WTF !!!

[Freddie]

I dont know where the min. weight comes from.. my 90 in full NHRA SS/GT trim wieghs in at a stagering 2875#.. and I can best a 11.25.. this is with stock front x-member, and steel heads.. but I am allowed any intake, and cam...( I run a parker with a .670 Mech. Roller)...I tested this setup with the T/W heads and a Edelbrock Performer RPM... we went a best of 10.85.. to run in Pure Street Trim I would also have to change the cam.. which should slow me back down to 11.0's...

NOT COMPETITIVE.... against a Lighter Mod Motor car running 10.40's...

[LSX-GTO]

Twisted Wedge:
15* Intake valve angle
17* Exhaust valve angle
Rotated intake and exhaust valve centers
Shorter port lengths
Custom castings available.

Edelbrock-AFR-World-Dart-Ford Motorsport
Stock 20* valve angle
Stock OEM valve location
Stock valve spacing
Stock port locations

Brodix
Stock 20* valve angles
Intake valve centers moved .119"
Exhaust valve centers moved .053"
Exhaust port raised .400"

Four Valve Modulars:
OMG... Just park your push rod car!

[GeneHindman]

Originally Posted by LSX-GTO

Twisted Wedge:
15* Intake valve angle
17* Exhaust valve angle
Rotated intake and exhaust valve centers
Shorter port lengths
Custom castings available.

Edelbrock-AFR-World-Dart-Ford Motorsport
Stock 20* valve angle
Stock OEM valve location
Stock valve spacing
Stock port locations

Brodix
Stock 20* valve angles
Intake valve centers moved .119"
Exhaust valve centers moved .053"
Exhaust port raised .400"

Four Valve Modulars:
OMG... Just park your push rod car!

I haven't measured the valve spacing on any of the other heads, but I hear that all of the heads have the valve spacing a little wider than FORD did. Mainly to get the bigger valves into the head without touching one another.
I believe you're right about the modular being the ticket also, especially in a good Fox chassis @3000#.

[rmracing]

While were looking at all the specs on which head looks better on paper , can anyone tell us how each head does with wet flow , the twisted wedge suck. How quick does each head go turbulent , the twisted wedge goes turbulent pretty guick. There are also differences in combustion chamber design and different swirl or tumble characteristics between heads that also can make a difference . What looks good on paper does not always work better , if it did we would all just let the desktop dyno build our engines .


Gene i wont go into to many details on the internet on mine and your old combo but lets be serious . Compare apples to apples , as close as we can get , not carb twisted wedge cars to efi brodix cars. Our combos both have very similar things , same intakes , headers, trans , clutch, mass air , injectors , etc.We even run the same pistons and rings. the main difference is the heads , sure we can have different cams but other than that they are pretty close combos . They both make within a couple hp of each other . One twisted wedge , one brodix . Yours has still been the fastest efi EVER . I dont know of 2 closer combos to compare.



Rocky

[teddy]

Originally Posted by rmracing

While were looking at all the specs on which head looks better on paper , can anyone tell us how each head does with wet flow , the twisted wedge suck. How quick does each head go turbulent , the twisted wedge goes turbulent pretty guick. There are also differences in combustion chamber design and different swirl or tumble characteristics between heads that also can make a difference .





Rocky

Very good points. I do know those anwsers as far as a T/W is concerned and they do suck. They do go turbulent rather quickly. Why don't we invite Ben Mens and maybe Danno in on this and give some insight, or any of the "PROFESSIONAL" enginebuilders/ head guru's.

[GeneHindman]

Originally Posted by rmracing

While were looking at all the specs on which head looks better on paper , can anyone tell us how each head does with wet flow , the twisted wedge suck. How quick does each head go turbulent , the twisted wedge goes turbulent pretty guick. There are also differences in combustion chamber design and different swirl or tumble characteristics between heads that also can make a difference . What looks good on paper does not always work better , if it did we would all just let the desktop dyno build our engines .

They have turbulence due to the way their ported. It doesn't matter anyway, our cams are .500". And just so you know... my heads had a little turbulence @ .525" We stopped @ .550" for this reason. Now how about velocity? Ask Rich Groh which head works best and how many looked good on the bench.

Originally Posted by rmracing

Gene i wont go into to many details on the internet on mine and your old combo but lets be serious . Compare apples to apples , as close as we can get , not carb twisted wedge cars to efi brodix cars. Our combos both have very similar things , same intakes , headers, trans , clutch, mass air , injectors , etc.We even run the same pistons and rings. the main difference is the heads , sure we can have different cams but other than that they are pretty close combos . They both make within a couple hp of each other . One twisted wedge , one brodix . Yours has still been the fastest efi EVER . I dont know of 2 closer combos to compare.

We had nothing the same as far as I know.We ran parts from the same manufacturer, but porting changes that. I highly doubt you used the same pistons and rings I had also. I know we had different shortblocks, which isn't good for much, but it worth a little. And just so you know. You made about 15 more HP than I did. Care to tell me where it was? Maybe.... Car? Maybe.... Driver? Maybe.... experiance? Just asking since you keep asking?

Originally Posted by teddy

Very good points. I do know those anwsers as far as a T/W is concerned and they do suck. They do go turbulent rather quickly. Why don't we invite Ben Mens and maybe Danno in on this and give some insight, or any of the "PROFESSIONAL" enginebuilders/ head guru's.

Professional... meaning: Does for a living... Right? I have my doubts about how much these guys know about any of the other heads other than the T/W. If they do this for a living, then their working on bigger and better projects than a P/S head. It takes so much time and effort in these little engines, most head and engine guys wont put the effort in for the return. They get started and then quit, saying " these aint good enough" and so on. All these heads are street heads and they all are designed for our specific needs. If they don't have turbulence after .500" then their not right for P/S. So.. How good are those points?
Like I said earlier, obviously it was good points on my proposal.... it effect 2 more classes.. 1 not even in NMRA. Just like Ed posted above... I put those same facts in my proposal. Read into a little and you'll see the huge difference.